There's More to That
A Smithsonian magazine special report
Why You Should Love Durian, the World’s Smelliest Fruit
The southeast Asian crop is a complex and layered one-of-a-kind fruit that consumes the lives of the devoted
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The durian, a spiky fruit that grows across Southeast Asia, has a polarizing reputation for its pungent odor and strong taste. There are the durian haters — people who experience waves of revulsion at the mere thought of consuming one.
And then there are the superfans who sing its praises and travel the world to experience the rare and complex bliss it inspires on the palate. Those who relish this fruit say there’s a lot to love. It can be eaten raw (shortly after falling from the tree) or prepared as the hero of both sweet and savory dishes.
In this episode, host Ari Daniel travels with his children to a San Francisco restaurant to interview its chef and owner, Azalina Eusope, about her love of durian and the cuisine it inspires. And he speaks with Smithsonian contributing writer Tom Downey about his trip to Malaysia to experience the euphoria of fresh durian firsthand.
A transcript is below. To subscribe to “There’s More to That,” and to listen to past episodes about using fruit depicted in Renaissance paintings to rescue modern agriculture, an award-winning restaurant in New Orleans that showcases Senegalese cuisine, and a prehistoric pit that entombed animals for millennia, find us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts.
Ari Daniel: Okay. I’m in San Francisco in the Tenderloin neighborhood.
Tim Benson: Hi. Welcome.
Daniel: Hi. Thank you.
Benson: Come on in.
Azalina Eusope: Hi.
Daniel: Hi. How are you?
Eusope: Welcome to Azalina’s in San Francisco.
Daniel: Thank you. Nice to meet you. Azalina’s is a Malaysian restaurant run by this woman, Azalina Eusope.
Eusope: I make the food that reminds me of the best thing of my childhood.
Daniel: I’m here with my kids.
Leila: Leila.
Eusope: Leila.
Raja: Raja.
Eusope: Raja. So yeah, here we are.
Daniel: Great. We’re so excited.
Here we are to talk about and taste a very special food, one that grows in Southeast Asia, including Malaysia, where Azalina grew up and has something of a reputation.
So this is a durian.
Eusope: I’m going to put it on the table so you can touch, you can feel.
Daniel: Azalina places a durian the size of a cantaloupe on the counter in front of us.
Raja: It’s spiky.
Leila: It’s spiky and sharp and looks heavy.
Daniel: Wow. Look at what’s on the inside. Looks like a brain.
Eusope: Okay.
Daniel: It’s pale and fleshy and odorous. The aromas are layered and come in waves.
Raja: It smells like a little bit of lemon and mango.
Daniel: Raja’s being generous. I mean those aromas are there, but there are other overtones and undertones. I find it super pungent.
Eusope: It has its own character. Not all durians smell the same. It can vary from your stinky socks to garlic to mango or onions. Durian is a very high-caloric fruit. It’s got a lot of great fat like avocado.
Benson: They say that you can live on durian. If you can find a few durian trees, it’s rich enough and it has everything you need, you can just live on it.
Daniel: Tim Benson is Azalina’s business partner. And he loves durian ever since he first tried it on a trip to Malaysia with friends of his.
Benson: They pulled over to the side of the road. There was a guy that had almost like a covered wagon, and it was full of durian, and he was just opening it and eating it, and they all gathered around. I just saw elbows and hands going up and down like this and I was like, “Well, I’m going to try that.” And I just started eating and it was so sweet and unctuous and delicious. I was just, from day one, I was smitten.
Daniel: People either adore this thing, like Azalina and Tim, or they despise it. Even in Malaysia, there are rules surrounding its consumption.
Eusope: You know, durian is banned inside a hotel, inside a restaurant, inside a shopping mall in Malaysia. You can’t bring durian. You can only eat it in your home or outside at the park.
Daniel: Really, banned?
Eusope: Banned, yes, because the smell lingers for hours. But me personally, I can sit there and eat durian until I can’t get up. It’s just — I love it. It’s special. It’s what make us who we are from the way I grew up.
Daniel: It’s a taste of childhood.
Eusope: Yeah. Yeah. I guess it’s that best memories of growing up. Yeah, it’s in my DNA. Durian is part of our, I would say, lifestyle. So to have that open mind of trying something before you decide that you don’t like it is always the best thing to do.
Daniel: From Smithsonian magazineand PRX Productions, this is, “There’s More to That.” The show where I actually try durian for the first time and so do my kids. I’m Ari Daniel. In this episode, the polarizing fruit that sends its fans into ecstasy and its enemies running for air. Keep listening.
Eusope: I make the food that reminds me of the best thing of my childhood. So it’s my interpretations of Malaysian food.
Daniel: Azalina grew up in Penang in northwest Malaysia on a small turtle-shaped island. Food was always a big part of her life.
Eusope: I’m fifth-generations of street vendors. My father was a noodle maker for 55 years. That’s his little cart right there.
Daniel: Azalina points to a mural adorning the dining room of the restaurant.
Eusope: That’s my grandmother and that’s the bridge in my little island and that’s San Francisco bridge. So it’s like two worlds coming together.
Daniel: This is where diners enjoy a five-course tasting menu every night, which has helped earn Azalina numerous accolades, including a listing in the Michelin guide and being a 2024 James Beard Award semifinalist.
Eusope: Our food is all about stories. So from one dish to the other dish, even though they’re different, they’re connected.
Daniel: Right now, the restaurant’s empty and it’s time to get down to business. We follow Azalina to the back of the house.
Eusope: This is our little kitchen. It’s little but mighty. So we are going to taste some different varietal of durian.
Daniel: Azalina lays out several plastic pouches of durians for me, Leila and Raja.
Eusope: So this is all different durians from different part of Malaysia and we get to try them all today. They come, like human, all shapes and sizes and color.
Daniel: This one looks kind of like mango. This one almost looks like a crab color.
Eusope: Yeah, sometimes we call them udang merah. That means red prawn.
Daniel: Yup.
Eusope: So shall we open and taste them all? Cause even I’m excited to try it. Feel like this is Christmas.
Daniel: Azalina opens the packages one by one.
Leila: Can I smell, Dada? Oooo, it smells like mango.
Daniel: Man, it is such a strong smell.
Raja: It’s so strong!
Leila: Smells like chocolate.
Daniel: Oh yeah, wow, that one smells great. Which one’s that? Limbang red. There’s so much going on in that.
Raja: Mmmmm.
Daniel: The moment of truth arrives. Leila and Raja go first.
Leila: I’m done.
Daniel: Leila, you ate the whole thing.
Eusope: Are you sure you’re not Malaysian?
Daniel: What did it taste like, Leila?
Leila: A bit like chocolate.
Raja: Tastes like coffee.
Daniel: He’s right, but far as I know, Raja’s never tried coffee before. What’s that, buddy?
Raja: I don’t want it.
Daniel: That’s okay. You don’t have to eat the whole thing. Finally, I try a bit.
Eusope: It’s okay.
Daniel: I can’t say that I like that. There are parts of it I like. There’s a lot of flavors going on there. There’s a nuttiness, there’s, I see the chocolate, the coffee. But I think I can’t eat the rest of that.
Eusope: It’s okay.
Leila: You’re like Raja.
Daniel: I know, I’m like Raja.
Eusope: Wow, Leila. You’re the most adventurous one here. Let’s high-five. Shall we try the next one?
Leila: Yeah.
Eusope: All right.
Daniel: We keep sampling them, durian after durian. Look at her devouring that. You’re really eating that, boo.
Leila: I like this one more.
Daniel: Yeah. It’s more subtle. You’ll like this one, Raja. It’s sweet. You like it?
Raja: No.
Daniel: The fruit now has a big following. It can be ordered year-round, but on traditional farms in Malaysia, it’s still seasonal.
Eusope: It’s a special time of the year when we experience durian, usually from end of May until August. That’s it.
Daniel: When durian’s in season, people travel from all over the world to Malaysia to try it fresh, like Tom Downey.
Tom Downey: So durians taste, I think, quite a bit different depending on where they’re grown. But there’s a number of other factors that really influence the taste of the durian.
Daniel: Tom is a journalist who recently wrote about durians and his trip to see and eat them for Smithsonian magazine.
Downey: And I was really blown away by just how deep, how varied and how edgy the flavors of durian can be,
Daniel: Edgy. I like that word. Tom explained that the different durian flavors can be attributed to when and how the fruit is harvested.
Downey: In general, in Thailand, Thai consumers have a preference for a much less ripe durian than do Malaysians. And in Thailand also, there’s a lot more industrial farming where you typically, you pick the durians when they’re not ripe and then you chemically ripen them later with a ripening agent that you spray on the durians. Now, in Malaysia, they believe that’s a completely terrible thing to do and they only want to ever eat a durian when it falls naturally from the tree.
When durians fall, there’s a physical action that happens that starts the fermentation process because things get knocked around inside the fruit. And one way you see this is durian sellers, in order to accelerate that process, sometimes when you choose a durian and you sniff it and you feel like it’s close, but not quite as far along the fermentation path as you would like, one thing they can do is they’ll throw it on the ground or they’ll knock it with a stick and that will further accelerate this fermentation process.
Daniel: While traveling around the state of Penang, Tom was eager to experience this naturally fermented local durian for himself. This led him to Lindsay Gasik, an American woman who spent 16 years traveling Asia, learning everything she can about this divisive fruit. Tom calls her a durian whisperer.
Downey: She and her husband essentially move with the durian season. And they’ve become really incredibly knowledgeable about durian. And for foreigners especially, they’ve become the people who teach people how to appreciate durian, how to open durian, how to understand durian. So what I was really going to Penang to do was to participate in a durian masterclass. It was run by this woman and her husband.
Daniel: What happens in a durian masterclass?
Downey: You eat a lot of durian. But also we went out into the durian farms and met the farmers and saw the way that they were growing durian and tasted them at the farm. You have to be careful when you’re going around durian orchards because these things are heavy. They weigh a number of pounds and they’re very spiky. I mean, they’re so spiky that if you don’t handle them correctly, you can easily cut your finger on them.
But durian has become so valuable these days that almost all durian farms in Penang have nets that they string alongside all of their durian trees so they don’t lose any durians because they smash to the ground. And we visited one farmer who refused to net any of the durians because he felt like the durian falling to the ground was part of the natural process. And he wanted people to eat durians that were naturally activated as opposed to netting where it’s a much gentler fall and therefore it doesn’t get going as much.
Daniel: What are the challenges for people who farm durians, figuring out the best time to harvest them, sell them?
Downey: The big challenge is 50 years ago, the durian season was relatively fixed. As with everything agriculturally related now, climate change has really made it much more unpredictable. For example, for the class that I was taking, they were unable to fix the dates of the class until it was about three months out for the reason that they didn’t know when the Penang durian season would start. And what they were waiting for was there needs to be a certain sequence of drought and rainfall that they know will kind of precede the durian harvest. So once they heard from the farmers, okay, things were dry enough, wet enough, we know it’s gonna start happening. In that case it was like at the end of May, then they could go and schedule the class for June. So I mean, it’s very unpredictable at this point.
Daniel: Considering that for Malaysian durian fans, the natural ripening and falling process contributes to the fruit’s flavor, this change in the seasons does affect the bottom line of local farmers.
Downey: The question is whether from a financial perspective for these farmers, they can keep doing that. When you only use durian that fall naturally you have a very limited window of consumption, maybe eight hours. It’s not enough time to ship them to China where there’s a huge number of consumers. And there’s a question for these farmers, should they switch to a more profitable and more lucrative but less desirable way of harvesting their durian?
Daniel: So as part of your class, you also went on a nighttime durian hunt. Can you tell me about that?
Downey: Yeah. So a lot of durian fall at night. So we went out to pick durian that had just fallen from the tree and to eat them right away. And the durian trees are arrayed up a slope with a little bit of altitude above sea level, but also a sea breeze. You can often see down to the water, but you’re up in these quite densely forested mountainous areas and that’s where prime durians come from. So we’re setting off in this group of probably eight or ten of us, marching quietly up the mountain. Of course, there’s a variety of insect sounds and the ordinary sounds of rainforests in this part of the world. But what we’re listening for is this whooshing sound of a durian hitting a net or the ground.
So as soon as we got into the area where it was dense with durian trees, we’re kind of all on high alert. And then you hear the first whoosh. And what they advised us was: cover your head with your hands, first of all, so that if you do get hit, it hits your hands, not your head. And second, move as fast away from the whooshing sound as you can until it hits the ground or the net that they’ve strung below. Once that happened, then you have to keep listening for any other durian that might fall. But then you have to find where that durian is. So then everybody turns on their flashlights. Everybody’s looking around and trying to locate the durian while also keeping another eye and ear open for any other falling durian.
Daniel: After the nighttime scavenger hunt was over, it was time to slice them open.
Downey: You need to locate this kind of spine that is along the durian. And if you properly locate that between all of these sharp ridges, then you can plunge a knife or something else into there and quite easily open the durian. If you can’t find the spine, then it’s a real mess to try to open the fruit.
Daniel: And so when you had these very fresh durians in front of you that had just fallen from the trees, can you describe the taste? Was there something unique about it?
Downey: Yeah, when you have the fresh durian, of course this is a strong-smelling fruit with pungent odors that are being emitted from it. But to me, when you have a fresh durian like that, a lot of the odors which people find off-putting when they’re walking by durian stalls are not present. Everything has a little bit of sweetness, but also with a quite intense bitter aftertaste. Some of the ones that we had that night, remember there’s a variety called Capri that is one of the more bitter durians that we had. So one of the things that struck me immediately was a lot of the things that people don’t like about durian aren’t present when they’re that fresh.
Daniel: Yeah. So it sounds like it was a more refreshing set of flavors.
Downey: I think that’s right. Although for people who haven’t tasted durian, it sort of has the kind of level of creaminess that you can imagine from like an avocado, for example. Every durian is quite rich and quite fatty tasting and quite creamy tasting. But you’re never going to get a durian that gives you the kind of level of refreshment of like a great orange or something, thing of that nature.
Daniel: So maybe it’s better to say its worst instincts were tamed a bit.
Downey: Its worst instincts were tamed. And also that farm just has wonderful durian. I think what you’re looking for in durian is complexity. When I start to think why do people love this fruit so much and why do they come back to it? It’s really about the range of different flavors that can go from sort of ice cream to blue cheese to chives to custard. There’s such a strong and crazy range of tastes that one piece of fruit can give you. There’s really this feeling of there will never be a durian exactly like this one, and I’m going to appreciate this one as much as I can for that reason.
Daniel: Back at Azalina’s restaurant, after the taste-testing warm-up, she offers to make me and my kids two dishes that contain durian — one savory, a fish and durian curry …
Daniel: So the durian just kind of dissolves into the dish.
Eusope: Exactly, yes. I just got a whiff.
Daniel: And one sweet.
Eusope: For dessert, we’re doing panna cotta.
Daniel: So a durian panna cotta? Wow.
Eusope: Yes. Can you push this up for me?
Daniel: Azalina blends coconut milk, cream, vanilla, honey, and of course ...
Raja: Durian!
Eusope: Oh my gosh, this smells like my grandma’s home.
Daniel: She would make a durian panna cotta?
Eusope: Yeah, we call them agar agars, basically like a pudding.
Daniel: The durian’s very versatile. It sounds like you can use it in lots of different types of dishes.
Eusope: Exactly, yeah. But you also have to be smart in choosing what ingredients that needs to support that flavor profile of the particular durian. Cooking is just not adding ingredients. Cooking has to make sense.
Daniel: What do you think durian can do that’s unique or special that other foods, other fruits can’t?
Eusope: I think durian has that versatility. You can really bend it to what you want it to be that other fruits cannot. Oh, yes.
Leila: How did you decide that you wanted to start a business of doing the food of your country?
Eusope: Oh, because there’s no dishes that reminds me of home. That’s why I decided, you know what? I miss my home. I miss my people. I miss my family, and no one can cook for me because we’re so far away.
Daniel: So this is a way for you to go home?
Eusope: Yes. This transport me back home so quickly. Okay. Shall we go eat?
Leila: Yeah.
Daniel: Azalina serves the fish curry alongside rice dyed blue from a special flower.
Leila: Yummy.
Daniel: Look how beautiful that is.
Leila: Yum. Tastes really good.
Daniel: What do you think, Raja?
Raja: I taste the durian.
Daniel: Do you taste the durian?
Raja: Yeah. It’s fine.
Daniel: I really like it.
Eusope: Is this better than eating fresh durian?
Daniel: I like it better. Yeah. I mean, it’s definitely there and I think it was nice to try it before because I now have in my head what it is in its pure form so I can understand how it’s mixed together with these ingredients. Yeah, it’s really nice. It’s much more subtle like this.
Eusope: Yeah, it’s easier.
Daniel: Azalina’s son, Andrew, tries the fish curry as well.
Andrew: It’s hard to even describe the flavor, it’s so much. It tastes like Malaysia, that’s for sure.
Daniel: So you’ve been eating durian since you were a kid?
Andrew: That’s right, yeah. I think when I was super young I was like Raja, I wouldn’t attack it. You know what I mean? But I think it’s mostly to do with the texture, but you get over that pretty quickly. Yeah.
Daniel: This is really, what a treat. Thank you so much.
Eusope: Of course. We haven’t even tried the dessert yet.
Leila: Yum!
Eusope: Okay, here we go.
Daniel: Wow. Thank you. Look at that. Azalina gives each of us a small bowl with chilled durian panna cotta. She drizzles generous amounts of palm sugar on top. The durian flavor is definitely there, but it’s good. It’s really good, actually. Still, even Leila reaches her fill.
Eusope: Do you want to pack some home?
Leila: I think I’m okay. One day of durian might be enough.
Daniel: We say our goodbyes and after we leave, as Azalia and her team spray down the entire restaurant to remove the evidence and rid the interior of the durian’s unmistakable smell. The restaurant opens in an hour and that fruit, it doesn’t make for good business.
To read more about Tom Downey’s durian adventure in Penang and even see a few pictures, visit smithsonianmag.com. We’ll put a link in our show notes along with some more information about Azalina and her restaurant in San Francisco. Many thanks to her and her staff for letting me and my family visit.
If you like this show, please consider leaving us a rating and review on Apple Podcast, Spotify, the I Heart Radio app, or wherever you get your podcasts. It helps new listeners find the show and we appreciate it.
“There’s More to That” is a production of Smithsonian magazine and PRX Productions. From the magazine, our team is me, Debra Rosenberg, and Brian Wolly. From PRX, our team is Jessica Miller, Genevieve Sponsler, Adriana Rosas Rivera, Sandra Lopez Monsalve, and Edwin Ochoa. The executive producer of PRX Productions is Jocelyn Gonzalez.
Our episode artwork is by Emily Lankiewicz. Fact-checking by Stephanie Abramson. Our music is from APM Music. I’m Ari Daniel. Thanks for listening.
Eusope: Have you burped yet, Leila?
Leila: No.
Eusope: You’re going to have a durian burp, like the next two days.
Leila: What do you mean?
Eusope: Some of us back home in Malaysia, we’re like, “Don’t come and hug me. Don’t sit next to me because you’re going to smell like durian for the next 48 hours.”
Leila: I’m going to smell like durian for the next 48 hours?
Benson: That’s okay because you’re with your dad, who was also tasting durian and eating durian and Raja was…
Leila: Well, Raja doesn’t even like the smell.
Daniel: I just had a durian burp.
Leila: I got a durian burp.
