Evolution in the Deepest River in the World

I've worked the St. Lawrence and the Saguenay Rivers in Quebec, Canada. The Saguenay has a spot nearly 1000 feet deep a few miles north of it's confluence with the St. Lawrence,another of similat. I have sounded it myself (it is on the western shore near a large frozen waterfall, if it is spring). Another spot of similar depth is near the mouth. Miles of the Saguenay are 600 feet or more. The river bed is an ancient fjord, the walls are up to 1700 feet tall. It is from a very ancient glaciation, the fjord is supposed to be a billion years old (according to a Canadian website I read - I don't have the link). The accumulated sediment on the river bottom is extremely thick.
The St. Lawrence, beginning just a few miles east of Taddousac, Canada, near the North Shore, drops off to about 1300 feet in depth in the innermost reaches of the Laurentide Canyon. The canyon water remains very cold through the summer, and is very clear.
The St. Lawrence is mostly salt in this area, although a lot of fresh flows in the spring - I've seen the halocline 40 feet down at times.
These are rivers, they are deeper than what is quoted for the Congo. Perhaps the Congo can keep its record by narrowing the def of a river somehow, but this should be explicit.

Canada has innumerable fresh water lakes that are land locked from any other lake for centuries. Why is a walleye a walleye and a northern pike a northern pike in everyone of them? Sure, the fish could be "evolving" in the Congo, but there could also have been a gazillion species to start with, and they are just being discovered BECAUSE the water is so deep and swift.

evolution is a biggest HOAX in world history

Good point, Dean.

It also asks the question of at what point does a river become a fjord?

Rivers that don't end in fjords probably should be put in a different category than rivers which end in mud flats like Mississippi, Nile, etc.

how long is it

The Kali Ghandaki Gorge is considered the deepest in the world without a doubt.
It is flanked by two Mountains of 8,000 metres. Dhaulagiri and Annapurna. The river bed is at an altitude of only 2,000 metres. This makes it a 6,000 metre gorge.
This is a fact.
I have walked it and partly boated it on many occasions.
John

VERY INTERESTING

I'm disappointed that evolution has allowed so many humans to devolve into anti-evolutionists.

Truthie,

"evolution is a biggest HOAX in world history"

================
Probably a comment by some kid who just wants to ruffle some feathers.

If it is not an intentionally inflamatory posting, then the writer must also believe that gravity is a hoax as well - both evolution (fact) and gravity (fact) are explained by a corresponding theory.

It is such a shame that so many people mix up fact with opinion and/or belief and do not understand the difference between a fact and the theory which attempts to explain that fact.

I totally understand that it is impossible to change such a person's beliefs with rational arguments, though.

Someday, I'd love to see the Congo. Traveling to other places is such a joy and really helps one to appreciate the magnificence of the planet we live on.

DH

I don't agree that evolution is a hoax. I think the Smithsonian probably has a collection of dolphin skeletons going back hundreds of thousands of years that will show the process of change in location of their nostrils and shapes and locations of fins. We want to believe that DNA can't change drastically over time, but there's enough good evidence like that to suggest that it isn't a hoax. I'm not exactly a creationist, but for those who are I'd allow for the possibility of "instantaneous creation" also. With different membranes in the universe being touted in modern physics it may be that putting a pattern in one membrane will cause matter to follow that pattern in the physical world in which we live. Given the number of ways that people build houses why should we expect there to be just one way for life-forms to be created by God or the universe?

Love the newsletter - I turn to it when I need a break from less interesting matters. The variety of subjects always breaks the monotony of balancing the budget, shopping etc.
I find the comments from other readers give me a different slant on the subject.

I would agree that evolution is a hoax. It is definitely not an obvious scientific fact like gravity is. Although species may change, they do not gain new genetic information. The genes may be arranged differently to produce different characteristics, but there is no information added. The addition of new information is essential for evolution to occur, and we do not have evidence of that occurring. Living things may adapt to the environment they live in, but they certainly do not evolve into something more genetically complex. Evolution is no scientific theory; it is a belief about the past which tries to replace God with natural processes that took place over millions of years. Were any of us there to see evolution take place? Of course not! God's holy book, the Bible, tells us the truth about the origin of the universe and the origin of life. "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." Genesis 1:1

Evolution is so dumb i don't know how people can even think that... God has created everything even you!!! Every living thing God has made and only God!!!!

Keith, Evolution is change over time from one species into another mostly due to mutation.. natural selection is change within a species due to environment. Your example of the dolphin is natural selection, not evolution.

Evolution is the distortion of the truth about everything surrounding us giving a unprovable reasoning for creation for those that refuse to believe in a proven Creator. To believe a lie like this is to go against nature itself which was created to glorify it's Creator.

both evolution (fact) and gravity (fact) are explained by a corresponding theory.

Gravity is the fact that there is a magnetic pull between the mass of bodies, and the strength of the pull is related to mass mathematically. There is ample evidence of it, and it has been scientifically tested. Ie..the Earth revolves around the Sun, the Moon revolves around the Earth, a rocket can use a certain amount of force to escape the magnetic pull of the Earth's mass and enter an orbit around the Earth beyond it's gravitational pull. A rocket scientist could explain that exact amount of thrust, the edge of the earth's orbital pull, and the mass that can be escaped with a certain amount of thrust.

Evolution is the theory that one species evolves from another one. Darwin believed it occurred over long periods of time, now it's considered more likely that it may occur fairly rapidly because of a gene mutation that is favorable to a species' environment. To my knowledge, unlike gravity, no one has ever seen evolution occur, that is an animal produce an offspring that is a different species, unable to mate with another offspring of its parent's species.

While there is much evidence in the geological record to make a thinking man believe that evolution via natural selection occurs, and that in fact, it is logical to believe it occurs, You are over-representing the factual evidence for evolution, it does not equal that of the evidence for gravity.

I Have decided that it is not necessary to understand everything. I understand one thing for sure. There is a creator. The same one that was. The creator knows me. The creator cares about me and guides me. I am grateful,

KIT

truthi, evolution is real. Just look at a tree when it is planted and then come back in a few years. It would've changed, and that is evolution. Evolution is change over time. You must either be wanting to ruffle some feathers, or a 'christian'

Isn't it interesting that in a world that has been cris-crossed by exploration for centuries there are still new things to be discovered.
It is sad that the human animal has not evolved from a superstitious being, accepting statements made loud enough and often enough as facts without critical examination.

Anything can happen in this world, and something always does.....where their is a will, their is a way.

Period.

The human body changes every 7 years...............why can anything else not change? Are some people that honestly shallow and narrow minded?

Evolution is NOT RIGHT!!! God created the earth and he created everything that there is in this world. Animals did not evolve over all those years. They have always been there.

interesting

evolution is a biggest HOAX in world history

Posted by truthi on November 4,2009 | 02:51PM

oh my god how many closed-minded bible thumpers do i have to endure within my lifetime. how many different species of biological life have been found around the planet over the past 25 years? so many have been thought to have been extinct for over 1million years or so. personally i believe we are nowhere near done finding new species of life on our own planet. as for those of you who happen to be naysayers well go ahead and go back to reading your bedtime stories like the bible, and leave the real world for those of us that believe that there are happenings on this planet that go well beyond a book written by men and decided upon by men back in circa 356 a.d. at the conference of nicene in constantinople.
as for me i believe we are only just scratching the surface of finding the true amount of life on this planet that has never been witnessed before. i cannot wait until people can actually travel the depths of the worlds oceans and find the most likely largest amount of life that has never been witnessed before. most likely species thought to have been extinct again for thousands to perhaps millions of years.

i think we nedd to run some tests before we start making acuzations

Perhaps I missed it, but if the article is about "The deepest river", I would think that somewhere in the article it would say "how deep?"

I do not believe in evolution. Recently, they disproved that we "evolutionized" from primates.

Ill jump on the evolution thing.. I dont believe in it to the point where to say we evolved from monkeys and such. I do believe in Micro evolution as opposed to Macro. I can easily prove evolution can not be possible. With no doubt. We have yet to witness or see and mutation in cells that has or going to mutate into an entirely new species. Here is one little arguement against.. There is this fish, well, the fish has these colors and shapes of the rock it swims around. I mean this fish looks just like the rock. So now for evolution to be possible. It would have to know what to make the fish look like to blend in, OR, the fish would have to swim around that rock for a million years for evolution to know to change the colors and shape to match the rock. Or was the fish just created to look like the rock from the beginning? Parden me if I didnt explain this too well,. I do hope you get my point. I do welcome an evolutionist view on how the fish ended up looking exactly like the rock. How mutations could have done that.? Thanks.. And please if you dont agree , dont call me names or bash me, I run into that alot on comments. Thanks

Just to a point but Evolution is NOT a FACT and should not be compared to Gravity. The proof for Gravity is Operational Science, which involves discovering how things operate in Repeatable and Observable phenomena in the present. Evolution is origins science deals with the origin of things in the past—unique, unrepeatable, unobservable events.

There is a fundamental difference between how the two work. Operational science involves experimentation in the here and now. Origins science deals with how something came into existence in the past and so is not open to experimental verification / observation (unless someone invents a ‘time machine’ to travel back into the past to observe). Studying how an organism operates (DNA, mutations, reproduction, natural selection etc.) DOES NOT TELL US how it came into existence in the first place. (Don Batten, It's not Science, Feb 28, 2008)

Let's be honest about the scientific nature of "Science"!

I'm envious of the crew and their opportunity to make discoveries of new species in a single locale. It's encouraging to learn there are still places on this planet of ours that house such mysteries. Makes life exciting and is humbling to know we don't have all the answers.

I've never understood the reason for differentiating Evolution from Creationism. Until recently no one could keep time to give it a stretch; about the last 5 thousand years.
Who is to say God is so limited? Or what time means to Him. In telling us the world was created in six days and He rested on the seventh day does not conflict with evolution.
Only of mans understanding of God, remember He has to give us information we can comprehend. That means what we can understand only limitedly the mind of God or proves our understanding may be at fault not Gods limits we impose because we can not see as He see or understands as He understands. For instance there are planets in the universe whose orbit may take a million years to revolve around its sun, does the one revolution not constitute a year or its spin if it has one may take many of our years to make a day?
As I staed in the begining I don't put mans limits on Gods abilities.

Is it really Evolution, or may it actually be Pollution?
Mutation possible, yes? How can we tell which one is today?

"evolution is a biggest HOAX in world history"

Are grammar and syntax also hoaxes?

I believe in science as fact.Dont get me wrong,without religion there would be worldwide anarchy.And besides everyones entitled to their own opinion,as long as they dont try and push it on others anyway.But to choose creation over evolution?Well your taking a ride down another river in Africa,Da-Nile. Just my opinion.I could be wrong.

Is there not a HUGE difference between evolution and adaptation?

What I find most iteresting is that scientists can "prove" that evolution (and many other theories such as the age of the Earth) is real when the only "factual" evidence of this is theories (which are generally disproven)carbon dating (which has been proved to be inaccurate even scientists say so), the only "true" proof is DNA. The fact of DNA is that there is so many strands of protiens; that one single difference in the protien structure can change the sructure and species of the organism.
All that I am saying is that you really cant know what "fact" is. In all honesty I am a firm believer in science but I find it amazing at how often "science" is wrong. Science is really based on belief, and the scientist that can sway the most people to believe them is the one that makes their hypothesis "fact".

so if evolution is the the evolving of one species into another species, the previous species would cease to exist right? then why do we still have so many species? there should be only one right? since humans evolved from monkeys like some people believe, why are there still monkeys?

There is a huge difference between evolution and adaptation. An Asian born person looks different than a European born person. It doesn't mean that one is more evolved than the other. It doesn't even necessarily mean that one has adapted to it's environment better than the other. It just means it looks different; same species. And I've never seen any half fish/ape crawling out of the ocean on it's way to become a human and I don't think we ever will.
I'm sure that over time, localized species groups could develop specialized survival skills and through several generations perhaps adapt their appearance as a result of emphasizing different parts of their DNA, it becomes more genetically pronounced. I may look less toned then the 'Governator' in his prime but that doesn't classify him as an 'evolved' human.... well, maybe it does.

Be careful in seperating fact from theory. Theory is based on observable facts and is supposed to be the most logical explanation for observations. Theory remains nothing mote than a theory until replicable expermentation is done. Then one must consider bias in the experiment, which may be undetectable. Misinterpretaion of observation is rampant down through time. Just because something is non-demonstrable does not mean it is not. God either exists or he doesn't. I believe he made all things that are or have been in the natural world. The bible says he first created them each kind after its kind and then he made them (manifested them). This does not preclude change in species over time. It does preclude a giraffe becoming a wart hog as an example. There is also no time with God, so the changes he has made can play out over a long time. The universe and life is not accidental but is the creation of God.

People discrediting evolution are in fact a process of evolution. The diversity allows for survival based on changing environmental, ecological and other conditions. The process will determine what to do with them.

The Kali Gandaki Gorge or Andha Galchi is the gorge of the Kali Gandaki (or Gandaki River) in the Himalayas in Nepal, by some measures the deepest gorge in the world.

The upper part of the gorge is also called Thak Khola after the local Thakali people who became prosperous from trans-himalayan trade.

The gorge separates major peaks Dhaulagiri (8167 m) to the west and Annapurna (8091 m) to the east. According to the difference between the river elevation and these peaks, this is the world's deepest gorge. The river runs at elevations between 1300 and 2600 metres[1], 5500 to 6800 metres lower than the peaks. The river is older than the Himalayas. As tectonic activity forced the mountains higher, the river cut down through the uplift.

I coincidentally just watch a documentary done by National Geographic on the Lower Congo River Basin and according to new data collected by way of pro kayakers armed with scientific collection assets affixed to their vessels, recorded depths of over 700 ft in a lot of areas throughout the Congo River. From what I gathered the lead scientist that headed this team said that it is well over the deepest river in the world. Hope this helps…

This type of article is way better than "Cat Catches Swine Flu" or "How to Eat a Chicken Wing". I cringe every time I accidentally click on the latest celebrity's fashion faux pas because I know Yahoo tracks what I look at and I'm afraid they'll think that's what I want to read and serve up more of the same.

P.S. Uh,..DH, your superiority is showing, you might want to tuck it in

"Why is a walleye a walleye and a northern pike a northern pike in everyone of them" asks Martin Johnson of fish in Canadian lakes. That's a great question. If you were to do genetic testing on samples of walleye from numerous different lakes, you would find subtle genetic differences. That's proven time and again in different regions of the United States. Example, green sunfish in Ohio are a distinct genetic population from the green sunfish in Texas. They look virtually the same, but if you look at them side by side you see small differences in coloration and markings. Back to the walleye, given another million years or so you might actually get another species of walleye in the diferent lakes. Give it another few million years and you could get a whole new genus that decended from the walleye. There is another factor at play. While it may seem that all those lakes are completely isolated, there's still some genetic mixing that occurs. While living in Florida, several times I've watched eagles snag fish in one pond, fly a hundred yards, and then accidentally drop the fish into a different pond. Acts like this are working to keep the genetic population similar throughout a large area...like Canada. If a 1000 foot high mountain range were to spring up right down the middle of Canada, I bet after 20 or 30 thousand years, the walleye on either side would look fairly different, at least enough to be considered a different species.

You spelled Asheville wrong....

For 'truthi' and those who are tempted to argue with it:

It is impossible to defeat an ignorant man in argument. - William G. McAdoo

very intersting,i love reading about the turbulent water of the congo river and the new species that we have found there over the years...very interesting indeed.

what the heck is this thing?

Evolution as it is being pushed upon us by the secular humanists(a religion as defined by the U.S. Supreme Court) is a crock. The idea of all life evoloving from a single cell organism is so far fetched and improbable that they had to come up with the idea that the earth is billions of years old. This is the only possiblity that it could have happened. Changes can occur due to adapting to an environment. That is why those from a more hot, arrid climate are usually darker skinned, or from a more frigid climate develop thicker layers of fat and lighter skin, but the are of the same species. Even in the study of geology there are 2 schools of thought in the formation of land masses. One says they were formed over millions of years and another formed as a result of a catastophic action. The latter seems more plausible since it is a fact that all of the granite on the planet was formed inside of a ten minute span of time. The study of the fossil history shows that it can all be accounted for in the last 10,000 years and teh dating tools used by the evolution side require an undisturbed time frame. This history was disturbed and folows the course of the live that was destroyed during a major whole earth flood. Most of the arguments I heard for evolution in college biology have been proven wrong for more that 100 years. Get the facts folks.

Although I do think evolution is true, a distinction needs to be made between macro-evolution and micro-evolution. I've noticed that pro-evolutionists rarely differentiate between the two and just say evolution. Micro-evolution is changes within a species which we do see. Macro-evolution is changes from one species to another and there is NO proof of this. There are NO transition fossils. Many times a "transition fossil" (supposedly millions of years old) is found and touted as proof of evolution only to find that exact animal living today. An example is the frilled shark. It is then labeled a "living fossil" and never heard about again. I'm sorry that is absolutely ridiculous. Micro-evolution is a fact however macro-evolution IS NOT.

Yes, for those who think I'm a creationist, you're absolutely right and I have science on my side.

God also created the earth thousands of years ago. Instead of millions of years ago, as has been proven by carbon dating. If you don't believe in carbon dating then, in essence, you also don't believe in the gasoline that runs your car.

Quick basic genetics lesson: genes occasionally mutate, meaning the genetic information encoded for a specific individual CHANGES. Sometimes only in one place on the DNA, other times in several places at once. This can happen in response to environmental changes or just randomly. If that individual adapts better to the changed environment with the altered genetic code, you have a new genetic line, that over time may change and adapt enough to no longer be able to mate and produce young with the former (older) genetic line. This is how new species are created and is also called Evolution. Whether you want to believe God causes the initial genetic drift, or it just happens, its a fact. Deal with it! The science of Evolution does not preclude faith in God. It just focuses our attention on the small picture as opposed to the larger one.

have any god believers thought about the idea that maybe god created evolution as well? that maybe he didn't want to just plant humans on earth and every other animal?
why is it weird to think that god started life very small and let it flourish and grow?

god works in many mysterious ways. who is to say that evolution didn't happen? and what is so wrong if it DID happen. how can it be a ''lie'' ?

There is more proof to believe aliens seeded this planet, than a "book" written by man. Not that I believe that. The big bag theory has been proven. God has not.

why is it that people have to argue between the bible and science there has been plenty of evidence for both cant we just agree to disagree and then move on and learn from it. To stay wrapped in the pages of the bible is to stay wrapped in ingnorance. the environment changes the living biengs on it change to adapt this is something wonderful and exciting and scientific. this was a great read and i have learned more from it.

I have to respond to Sweety.

What difference does being a Christian or not being a Christian make? Either the science is there or it's not! To believe in macro-evolution is faith based as well. There is no proof for it (no true transition fossils) and therefore a belief in macro-evolution can only be taken in faith. Most of the supposed transition fossils have been debunked because the animal is still seen alive today!

If evolution is true, then why is it that when an animal reproduces, the same animal is born, and almost nothing has changed? How could it be possible that everything you see was an accident, and not ordained by God?

Here's a thought,the Bible is just a book. Now think again about evolution.Tell me what you think.

Right... evolution is a hoax... and a man lived inside a whale for 3 months... women were made from a man's rib... a boat was made to fit 2 of every living creature on earth... sure...

People are so gullible. They won't believe something that has been given evidence and proof, but they'll believe some made up story they read in a book (100% of which cannot be proven and really never has).

Even if evolution were not a fact, at least someone is attempting to rationalize their thoughts and provide evidence to their theory, rather than jumping in the herd of zombie sheep who will believe anything their oh-so-holy book tells them to believe.

Rivers are fascinating in that every foot is in it's own way totaly differant from that before it and continually changing. The life forms that live in that environment would naturally be expected to adapt or follow the habitat to which they have become adapted.
As far as evolution goes, mythology (religion) strives to simplify the mysteries of the world while science strives to understand why, how, and when. To understand how the world around us works and th symbiotic relationships between us and the world. The differance between mythology and science comes down to curiosity. Wanting to know why rather than accept the simple answer, because.

Evolution is most definitley not a hoax...how did you ppl come up with that bulsht? If you want to believe that some higher power created the world thats fine but between evolution and someone we have never even seen creating the world, I think out of those two the second one is probably the hoax!! There is clear scientific evidence which suggests that species have evolved over time. How do you think we got here?? We evolved from primates. Other species adapted over time to fit their environment. For example the earliest prehistoric birds evolved into the birds we see today. Biology is a very complex, interesting field of study which explains a lot about life on earth. Saying that it is a hoax is really blowing off hundreds of years of scientific discovery and research and that is just not cool. Go ahead, believe some power exists up there and made all of this. But at the end of the day, the only solid explanation is scientific evolution' which is actually quite fascinating.

Mathew Miller, the bible was written by Man. That is all the needs to be said on that subject. About evolution, none of us WILL witness it. Realize people, a journalist wrote this. The claims that it is the deepest river is just that; claims. Until proven otherwise (like apparently it was :P) it is fact until we find another, even deeper river. My question is, WHY does everyone have to categorize, recategorize, and make complicated messes from subjects that are not complicated. A river is a river no matter how it ends. Please for the love of sanity, don't complicate things more. Life is complicated already. I would like to see an article on the harsher lakes. Alkaline lakes and stuff. I have "heard" that life tends to be...forming constantly in those types of conditions. I'm intrigued :D

Interesring

A lot of times when National Geographic, or the History Channel does a piece on something like this... they don't dig much for facts. They loosely base their findings with small amounts of evidence with the missing spots filled in with educated guesses. Evolution is not a hoax... and I am a creationist. Macro-evolution (The theory that states that all life evolved from one thing). There is 0 evidence for that. There are lots of good theories but with no observational evidence. Micro-evoltion (Order to species changing to fit their enviroments like v02 maxes changing, body's climate control, pigmentation, eye size.... nothing has ever been observed evolving an eye, or changing from a reptile to a mammal)(The archaterix was a hoax) does exsist.... and there is lots of proof for it. The fossil record does not back Macro-evolution. There has never been a fossil found showing a bridge from the taxonomic levels of class and order. All evolution that has been actually been observed is from order to species. Many scientist (biologists) agree that DNA and RNA are alien and are "too complex" to have evolved to the level it is at in the small time frame opf 2-6 billion years...

Evolution is a fact, but ONLY in a "FAMILY" not from species to species, that is also a FACT. There is SO MUCH more proof and fact for creation that its not even close. Can you really sit there and argue or debate the proof that man "evolved" from apes? PLEASE!!! I would welcome any debates on this issue, but I can guarantee that no one will take me up on this offer because their argument is full of holes. <"///><

after all you wrote you should think about how many other species we haven't discovered yet.we need to create better tecnology to go deeper in oceans and rivers.over all the discovery is pretty cool.

Although Jamman is slightly off on the gravity bit, it is not a magnetic force, he is correct on the evolutionary theory. If any of you have taken a biology course in the past 150 years, you would know that natural selection is a theory under the umbrella of evolution. Jamman is correct in saying that there is much evidence, this does not exactly proof it. The most concrete evidence is from the field of genetic anthropology where you can see the different chromosomes change throughout human history. It is logical of course and has nothing to do with religion. Scientist cannot include religion in their studies.

Mr. Haywood, a theory does not explain a fact. If it is indeed a fact it is not explained by theory but by a natural law of some sort.
Gravity is directly observable by an individual and can be applied to everything pertaining to gravity with no error between people. It has predictability.

Evolution is not directly observable because you cannot sit down and watch one species change into another, therefore it is a theory.It happens at random according to trillions of stimuli we do not fully understand.
I do personally beleive in evolution, however it still remains a theory and will stay that way until either humans can cheat death to watch evolution happen as a species completely changes into another or some species discovered that has unprecidented evolutionary speed.

God created evolution, BOTH EXIST. So both sides are partly right.

Blind fish (with no eyes) have been with us for a long long time.

One of the caverns of Virginia has waterways along side of the cavern tunnels that are actually about 5 inches deep and the fish don't even have eyes. Totally blind, but noone seems to ever mention them.

Just a point. We do not know what species actually exist until we find a new source (stream, river, etc.) that has not been discovered before. Then all hell breaks loose because the species are different from the species that we know exist.

Hardly a shocks me at all that new species are discovered and everyone tries to say they are ancient or part of an evolutionary cycle that we did not know about.

Just chalk it up as a new species found and let it go.

Obviously many of the people against evolution have no scientific background, but rely on ancient written word. For example, Chris...evolution of a fish to look like a rock works like this. Billions of fish are born and they are very similar looking, but have minor differences due to genetics. Predators come along and eat ones that are easy to spot against the rocks. However, some may have colorations that are somewhat closer to the rock color so the predator doesn't see and eat them. So these fish survive to breed and pass along their genes. Just like if you have dark hair there is a higher likelihood your kids will have dark hair. The offspring of these fish will more likely have coloring closer to the rocks. I still don't understand why some people who believe in God don't think evolution would be something He would have also created. My belief is He would believe "survival of the fittest" would be a better option for existence than pure luck.

As the universe is still expanding and "evolving" it is still being "created". We are just here for the ride.

Is it not possible for evolution to be a follow up of creation? Is it not possible that God created all things and then evolution or natural selection took over? Keep thinking.

I believe in evolution.

Children be not confound with foolishness. I have created things as they are to change over time.

All this talk about evolution makes me laugh when people say it isn't possible...closed minds. It boils down to "God" can't be PROVEN any more then evolution can be proven...we'll probably never know the truth until we die and even then we won't know anything if it turns out there is no "god"

how can anyone explain where the earh and stars material came from other than God!

I think it is amazing that no one sees evolution in us. just in the 1800's pepole where smaller didnt live as long, this is change and for pepole that only believe in a creator would do you know we were created instantly maybe just maybe we were created to evolve (for give spelling}...thank you

Evolution was never a FACT,(remember, it was Darwinian's THEORY?), GRAVITY is!

I would like to ask a simple question. What ever happened to the idea that the church would stick to religious, spiritial, and personal studies, while science would study the physical world? I ponder how people can discuss religion and science in the same sentence, both trying to explain the same thing. Faith or hard facts? You can decide.

A fascinating discussion on speciation within a river which one would think does not have the barriers to allow such diverse adaptation.

Alas, this fine discussion is marred with the fatuous nonsense of self-confessed true believers who decry their profound lack of understanding with ideological and half-baked slogans about something they are completely unable to assess critically. Why can't they restrict their whining to some mindless theological commentary where everyone agrees with them and shares in their ignorance instead of mucking up a fine zoological discussion with a lot of uninformed diatribes?

The tragedy is their intruding their ill-advised religious views in a simple report on significant discoveries made by bright,reputable scientists with no motive beyond imposing their religious views. I, for one, don't care what they believe. But it ticks me off to hear such tripe when I'd like to hear some informed feedback.
Frank P. Araujo, Ph.D.

It is spelled Asheville, lol

Unreal.
I'm amazed at how poorly educated humans can be, even in this age of technology.
People, trying to discredit the Theory of Evolution with (or due to) one's religious beliefs is SO 20th century . . .

Seriously, if your religious belief is so fragile that you feel threatened by Darwinism, you need to spend more time meditating or praying. The Bible is a powerful tome, and it's fair to say parts of it may be factually-based. But really, believing that the world was "created" at the whim of God is like believing that cows jump over the moon. It's a story. A very good story.

There is an encumbrance of fossil evidence that supports and validates the evolution of species. To refute the Theory of Evolution is shameful and ignorant. It is *perfectly* reasonable to utilize religious beliefs and worship God, while also accepting that genetics/mutation/Darwinism have played a role in the development of our modern world, too.
Instead of ranting about how only one "side" of this "debate" can be "truth", focus your brain on synthesizing *both* "sides" into a more intelligent, more useful, more rational stance.

Please expalin to me how can a fact be proven by a corrosponding theory.

what a wonderful idea. i would love to see and feel these new/old spieces. this article makes me think about alot of different points of veiw. evolution, creationalism, maybe even the idea of a mix of the two. how a speceise evolves and adapts to the environment around them. wow.
a.h.

No, I am not bigfoot, but a scientist, who happens to be faithful Christian. Yes, we do exist. For those fundamentalists who think that evo is a HOAX, and for those who scientific folk who think all Christians are nut-jobs, listen closely: EVOLUTION AND GOD ARE NOT MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE!

Look evolution disbelievers, evolution is a so well supported by science that it may as well be a fact. However, take note, there is no reason that it has to affect your faith. God and evolution are not mutually exclusive.

To Matt Miller's rebuttal of evolution, "The genes may be arranged differently to produce different characteristics, but there is no information added. The addition of new information is essential for evolution to occur, and we do not have evidence of that occurring" you are simply incorrect. New information (whatever you mean by this) is not essential for evolution. Evolution occurs when genetic mutations occur over a given period of time within the gene pool of a species to a point where a given population within the greater species becomes too genetically diverse to breed with other populations within the species. As a result, voilà, two species have emerged from one.

I find people's lack of faith disturbing. They claim to believe in an all powerful creator of infinite wisdom, but believe his/her/its powers were limited to creating only static species without the ability to evolve.

Evolution is a reality. Reality doesn't contract anything in faith, only people's wrongfully limited perceptions of that faith. The bible thumpers who slander anyone who supports scientific progress fancy themselves among the same crowd as those that believed the earth was the center of the solar system, and that the earth was indeed flat.

It is sad that such an interesting article, well written in both scientific content and literary skills, can become the object of such senseless babel. Props to the author, I enjoyed it and look forward to any updates that may be posted.

Ok... I did not read all the comments above. I stopped when I started to see people posting things about God making everything and evolution being a hoax.

This really upsets me.

I am a Christian and I believe the creation theory. I also believe in evolution.

The people that have posted things negatively are not educated people, obviously. Next time, you should probably know what you're talking about before you post stuff like that. Go read the definition of evolution, you dopes.

God created everything. EVERYTHING. Now, species are changing. I am not saying we came from monkeys. We are similar to monkeys. We DID NOT come from monkeys. Clear enough for you guys??

A good example of evolution: Humans' increased height. There are skeletons to PROVE that people used to be, centuries ago, much much shorter than the average height now. We are still humans, aren't we?? Yet, we have evolved. We were human, and we still are. Just taller. We did not evolve from monkeys to be taller, we evolved from humans to be taller. Another example: viruses. We have come up with antivirus after antivirus after antivirus. There is a new flu vaccine every year. Do you know why?? The flu virus evolved so that the old vaccine no longer affected it, or to some extent of that sort. It is still the flu, as it was before, but it evolved. Another example: One of the fish from this article. It had no eyes. It adapted, evolved, to its habitat. It didn't need eyes, so it got rid of them. This is evolution. The fish didn't come from a lizard on shore, it came from itself, the same kind of fish.

Ugh, people irritate me. Evolution is all around us. We don't make up these fossils we find. They're there and real. They're fact. They show how species have changed to improve their physical makeup to better suit survival. This is evolution, people.

Evolution does exist. It is created daily by GOD. Everything He touches, everything He creates, everything He changes is for a reason. Are the fish adapting to the water on the other side of the river in an effort to survive? Are His people creating more sophisticated structures then they were 100 years ago to safely house His children? He waves his hand and changes the seasons.
We as humans are so foolish and so arrogant at times when trying to "discover" and "label" new things in an effort to accomplish our personal goals. Although I am sure there are those that are pure of heart and follow their path with good intention the way that God has intended, but in the end, it's all his. His creation, his change, his intent.
This world is not ours to fully understand in this lifetime.

So let me get this straight. If Mr. A is prevented from crossing his neighbor's fence to breed with Mrs. B, then Mr. A will go through some sort of a genetic change? Just wondering.

That's pretty cool, I've always wanted to know about the Congo River, it's as undiscovered as the Amazon or the Nile and I've never seen anything on the Congo Rive in like tv shows and stuff so it's interesting to learn more about it.

If virus' can evolve, why can't another species? Science and God are the same, wasn't God the one that created science anyway? Since you changed the subject.

The ignorance about what evolution is or isn't is, quite frankly, astounding.
1. natural selection is part and parcel of evolution; in fact, it is called Darwin's theory of natural selection. 2. Evolution is not species replacement. Evolution is the fact that species change due to local environmental and geographic pressures that separates members of that species from other members of said species (founder effect). For instance, the spreading of the Great Rift Valley along with the subsequent rise in elevation in East Africa caused a rain shadow effect on the east side of the rift. This dried out East Africa and it became the savannah we know today. We can easily see this in the geologic record. The sum effect of all this was to divide two groups of a chimp-like mammal into two different species. On the west side of the rift the environment did not change drastically enough to create the environmental pressures to incur drastic species change, yet on the other side it did. Today chimps, bonobos, gorillas exist on the west side of the rift and humans developed on the east side. So, of course, "older" species still exist (although the monkeys and apes that are around now are not those of 10 million years ago) because in their neck of the woods the pressures to evolve were and are a great deal less than in our rather woodless neck.

Hope this gives y'all something to chew on.
Thanks.

You don't have to witness something, to know its true, or fact. In fact, you can witness things that are not true, fact, or even possible. I know this, because I play video games and watch t.v. As far as evolution, THEORY. Well, most of it anyways. I keep forgetting about the little things, like the small changes.

The only thing I agree on is that this is a controversial issue, not only dealing with the readers . but with the rest of earths population.

There you have it. I can see the headlines now

Evolution: HOAX OR FACT OF LIFE

AGE:13

I get a kick out of how many definitions are floating around above. Various ones for evolution, gravity, natural selection, etc., etc. It seems many of you are basing your comments on opinionated fact rather than verified fact. If definitions of what evolution even is are this varied, there isn't even an argument worth attempting to settle. So let's start with the definition of evolution.

Merriam-Webster:
1 : one of a set of prescribed movements
2 a : a process of change in a certain direction : unfolding b : the action or an instance of forming and giving something off : emission c (1) : a process of continuous change from a lower, simpler, or worse to a higher, more complex, or better state : growth (2) : a process of gradual and relatively peaceful social, political, and economic advance d : something evolved
3 : the process of working out or developing
4 a : the historical development of a biological group (as a race or species) : phylogeny b : a theory that the various types of animals and plants have their origin in other preexisting types and that the distinguishable differences are due to modifications in successive generations; also : the process described by this theory
5 : the extraction of a mathematical root

Biology-Online.org
noun, plural: evolutions

(1) The change in genetic composition of a population over successive generations, which may be caused by natural selection, inbreeding, hybridization, or mutation.

Now let's look at the difference between evolution and God in terms of provable fact. Currently neither one has been irrevocably proven. And if you follow anything in regards to the theory of dark matter, the "God particle", Noetic science, quantum physics, string theory, chaos theory, or any of the upper level "neo-sciences" you would better understand the argument posed here. We are much closer to proving God does not exist (at least not in most religious senses) than proving God does exist.

I really appreciate the "corrective insights" as to what river may actually be the deepest - especially Dean's first hand account.
Tracer offers up a good point: Maybe there should be categories, or qualifiers, on what actually constitutes a river - then the learned folks could debate what type of river is the deepest.
I thought that - and only now, because of the man-made dams - the Yangtze River in China is the deepest? (and most polluted?)
As for the other "debate" herein: Evolution or Creation, a person believes one or the other. Civility dictates that we respect and acknowledge the right of another person to have an opinion other than our own. With that said, truthie clearly posted to goad people into a "post war" - and did not post in a manner for debate or discussion.

Why do Creationists insist that Evolutionists claim man evolved from monkeys? Man did NOT evolve from monkeys. Man, ape, and monkey evolved from a COMMON ANCESTOR. The differences arose because of physical and geological barriers, and lifestyle niches. This is just a common case of Creationists attempting to utilize logic, which is absurd considering they believe in talking burning bushes, 900 year old people, and zombies rising from the dead. The list goes on. Also, I find it hilarious that the people touting Creationism lack a basic understanding of proper English. Really, they ought to be embarrassed.

For so many people to take this article and turn it into a debate over religion or evolution, Is STUPID. This is an artical about the possibility of new life, and people take it and turn it into something totally irrelivent. its about discovering the unknown, searching for new life, new knowlege, and not about Whos beliefs are right or wrong, man i hate it when people take something so fascinating and turn into a chance to flaunt their beliefs. but then again i guess thats life, and to some people just writing this is the same thing. Alas, there will never be peace on earth as long as there is more than one religion.

I believe God made evolution to help explain things to humans. He created all science to explain things to us, so we aren't running around making flame wars like this. the "monkeys" humans evolved from is an explanation to people who doubt evolution.They were not the monkeys we know today, but a monkey-like creature.

Thank you Matthew Miller for giving an intelligent answer to another writer concerning "evolution being a fact based on theory".
Too many people have fallen into this lie without finding out through their own research where the "theory" of evolution started. Show me a scientist or educator that that just takes someone else's word and doesn't try to at least do some investigating in the topic (and other theories as well), and you have have an ignorant and closed mind individual.

To Richard Hutka:

I find it amusing that you seem to believe you can "know" anything about when God created the Earth. He is a divine being, and as such, we as humans can not begin to comprehend His actions, thoughts, etc. What is a day to God? He is supreme, all-powerful: the Creator. To Him, a day may be hundreds of millions of years. This is not for us to know; we cannot possibly begin to understand how God works.

As to your claim that the age of the Earth has been proven by Carbon dating: this claim is entirely false. Carbon dating is extremely ineffective at dating old objects. By carbon dating, I assume you are referring to Carbon-14 dating, which has a half-life of 5730 years. Carbon-14 dating is ineffective to date something older than 5730 years. Due to the fact that Uranium-238 dating has a half-life of 4.5 billion years, geologist were able to determine that the oldest rocks ever discoverd on the Earth are 3.8 billion years old, and the oldest minerals have been dated to 4.2 billion years. For them to exist, the Earth truely needs to be older than 4.2 billion years. If you are such a firm believer in radioactive age determination, surely you must be able to realize that your logic is faulty.

Evolution is one of God's beautiful creations, and does not disprove his existence.

I find it amusing that people have to leave comments on here to bash evolution. If you talk to most scientists, you would see that they actually believe in God, they are just not following a strict interpretation of the Bible. I also find it amusing that people can say the Bible is "right" and infalible, even though it is a book that man has wrote and has been changed and modified over many years. Also would like to point out that Christianity is one of the youngest religions on Earth, so how is it more right than older ones? I am not on here to bash back at the Creationist. I myself believe in a "God" like being, but I take more of the Deist view on it. "God" is like a clockmaker. He builds the universe, and then sets it into motion. Standing back and watching his creation go, every now and then, stepping in to maybe fix or modify it. Darwin was also a Deist. He believed God made the universe, but that evolution was his way of changing it. How can we, mere humans, even begin to comprehend or understand God? If we did, would that not make us a God ourselves? For those who do not understand evolution and what the theory states, please take a class to know what you are talking about. Such as to steven's post, "so if evolution is the the evolving of one species into another species, the previous species would cease to exist right? then why do we still have so many species? there should be only one right? since humans evolved from monkeys like some people believe why are there still monkeys?", the evolutional theory of man is that man evolved seperately from a "common ancestor" with apes. This means that our branch of the ape family tree diverged from and before the great apes of today's branch so they can exist. There is a difference between apes and monkeys. Some times the species will disappear after time if it is less fit to survive, but a species may diverge into many different species, due to the different environmental fatcors effecting it, not just one.

Everyone can argue that Evolution is a theory or just a rediculous notion created by a desparate man trying to make a name for himself. But no matter what you believe, there seems to be several questions that no one wants to address.

1. If God created the Earth using the 7-day theory and created Man in his own image. When did he create the Dinosaurs? When in the "7 day" history of creation did he place them on the Earth?

2. If God created us in his image, then why do we have such similar genetic traits to many of the primates co-existing with us?

3. If the "7 Day" creation theory is true. Why does the geologic time-line of the Earth date to over 4.5 Billion years and the fact that the Human Species has only been around for 4-5 Million years?

Chronological time-lines do not correlate with the story written in a book (written by men, I must interject) that has no proof of its origins, either.

There is more evidence to support an Evolution Theory than that of the Creation Theory! And one final point! Both are still considered theory!

Such an interesting article, but sad that a conversation on intelligent design v evolution has to devolve (pun intended) into insults. I, for one, believe that the two are NOT mutually exclusive and that evolution is just one more example of the miraculous design of a power much greater than myself.

"Is it not possible for evolution to be a follow up of creation? Is it not possible that God created all things and then evolution or natural selection took over? Keep thinking." correct!

Lew- Natural selection leads to evolution, although not all the time.

Anyone who believes that there is proof of evolution and a god is wrong. There is no proof of a god. Different books written by humans about a god is not proof.

The earth is billions of years old and has been proven so. Carbon dating is real and, yes, can be imperfect in certain situations but, sorry folks, most of it is correct when it comes to dating our planet.

Since I'm being kicked off the computer the only thing left to say is that there are transitional bones - look it up.

I don't see why some people believe that evolution and creationism have to be mutually exclusive.
Can't evolution be God's choice to use to create all things, including man?

Go look at the anatomy of a giraffe and tell me how it could have evolved. Just sayin. And hey, people need to stop thinking that whoever they are arguing against is stupid. It takes a little bit of blind faith to belive in either God or evolution. And to not see that fact really makes one seem uneducated and ignorant.

You guys are arguing about speceization (which is a proven). Evolution is still just a theory. Their is still no definitive proof that one animal has evolved into a completely different kind.

Encoded in the human genome is a massive amount of "junk" genes that are no longer relevant. These are the leftovers from our ancestors going back millions of years. Did God create a "paper trail" just to throw scientists for a loop? Maybe he got a kick out of it?! Also, if all of humanity is descended from Adam and Eve, there must've been a ton of incest going on...

Why does it have to be Evolution OR Creationism? Is there not a distinct possibility that both are true? We are infantile in understanding the intricate nature of our planet much less the universe. It seems very arrogant and narrow minded to think that evolution is not a possibility. There are examples around the globe of flora & fauna that have adapted to ecosystem specific areas. Are dinosaur fossils & shifting continents also bunk.

Someone earlier said that evolution and gravity were "facts" and not theories. However, in the world of science and research, finer lines have been drawn between the definitions of such words. First, facts need to be something of actual existence and supported with evidence of an objective nature. Gravity qualifies as a fact under these auspices, however evolution does not. Most of us in the world of sciences and research are aware of this distinction. Thus, we categorize evolution as a theory due to a lack of "actual existence" and objective support. In other words, evolutional theory merely has the potential to extist due to lack of intimate evidence. In addition, scientist are also people who, like anybody, cannot be completely objective. We often have questions with uncertain answers guided by personal beliefs, no matter how hard we try not to let it interfere. I enjoy healthy dialogue as much as anybody, but I felt it necessary to clean up some misconceptions in earlier entries.

Shame on all of you who have allowed this conversation to "devolve" into name-calling and mutual put-downs. Makes me ashamed to be identified with either position. Both sides are now overreacting to simplistic mis-statements of the others' position. What a great way to communicate...

this is amziang, i want to see the picture of this new thing.

All you god fanatics- How can you account for the endless fossils and such that have been found of species extinct for millions and millions of years? And you people need to do your homework, there have been transitional fossils that have been found. Its sickening and troubling reading some of this nonsense.

Although I believe in it, I concur that evolution is just a theory that is difficult to prove. It all depends on how you interpret the "evidence."

And I feel the same way about God. God's existence is difficult to prove, because we cant nail down exactly what he/she/it is. It all depends on how you interpret the evidence.

But I insist that the Bible is an antiquated book. Most people (but not all) are considerably wiser now than when it was written. Is there some truth there? Perhaps. It all depends on how you interpret the evidence.

People fear God, and maybe rightly so. But there's no need to fear the concept of evolution.

i agree with ivan, you believe in the creator but what gives you the right to say he didnt plan on evolution, the "creator, god, allah, yahweh" knowing all he must've known our interest in knowing our past and where we came from and he might have slowly changed our bodies. i personally believe in god, natural selection, micro-evolution, but not macro-evolution, i don't think we started out as primeapes but something in very close relation, even the greatest art in the world make blunders (im not comparing god to any human) but they slowly fix their mistakes. Who says god does everything perfect? if we did there would be no poverty or death, its all just a test to see how you live your life As the prophet Muhammad(pbuh) said "Seek knowledge from cradle to grave" i dont see how these "christians" go on and say the world was founded 1000s of years ago when we have facts, maybe god finally realized we were intelligent enough to finally understand, and nothing if you don't believe our philosophy what gives you the right to make us forcefully believe yours?

~Someone who takes time to listen to an argument

I sure the majority of the people commenting here did not even read the article, nor saw the special on nat geo on this, they just saw the word evolution in the title and quickly started an conflict between creationism and evolution.

Just a quick science lesson kiddies. The genetic code is a sequence of only FOUR nitrogen bases. Which for those not in the know, we'll simply assign the numbers 1-4. Only 1 and 3 may pair up, and the same for 2 and 4. so you will get 1-3 and 3-1, as well as 2-4 and 4-2. This simplistic combination is the programming language for the most complex coded information ever conceived, and also, when an animal evolves, there is no 'new' genetic information so much as existing genetic information is reconfigured due to mutations in individuals that allow them to survive more easily, less easily, or that have no effect one way or the other. If it survives to mate, then the new traits are passed along into the gene pool and should enough descendants survive, evolution successfully takes place. And also a quick inflammatory question. If evolution is a hoax, why do whales have vestigal leg bones?

Steven, no, that's not how it works. You know nothing about it, but that doesn't make it incorrect. How much do you know about chemistry?

Other anti-evolutionists. Please, folks. The bible is a book about morality, about how to live your life, NOT a book about physics, chemistry, or biology. If we relied on the bible for our understanding of anatomy or chemistry, imagine how impoverished our medical institutions would be!

Don't make the same mistake the early church made, holding on to beliefs like the world is flat and the earth is the center of the universe. Rely on faith and the bible or your other belief system for your moral compass. Rely on science and reason for your information on facts.

Framed reasonably, faith and science need not be inconsistent. Science tells us precious little about how things OUGHT to be. In fact, many scientists acknowledge that it can't. That's a good place for religion.

First, a human wrote the Bible and spread the word, so religion was brought to the minds of humans the same way Science is brought to humans. There will be believers and will be nonbelievers. So my point is that the Bible is heresay and not a FACT! No one can "prove" God created everything. Someone "wrote" the Bible. For example, Religious people used to believe that the Sun was the center of the universe, and that God, having created all life on Earth, should have made the Earth the center of the Universe. so I guess, the believers in God and the Bible, must still believe that all the planets revolve around the Earth, right?

I can't say I believe or not believe in God. But I believe that the supreme being you call God, could actually have formed the Earth the way it really was formed, BY accident! And life on Earth formed first as a single-cell, and over time multiplied, taking different elements from the Earth and creating different species. Some species evolved, and some did not. Take a chemistry class, take some biology classes and you will see that life is amazing, whether there is a God or not.
I will continue in a different post.

continued:
Just because we all want to have something to believe in, a "reason" why we are all here, breathing, thinking, wonderful creatures doesn't necessarily have to be an act of a God, and if it was, then why couldn't He/She/It have created through the process by which Science explains it and not through what the Bible says... Adam/Eve THEORY.

Evolution doesn't mean the "immediate" extinction of another species. Every species mutates with every conception, for survival. So someone asked if humans evolved from monkeys/apes, then why are there still monkeys/apes.... It is shown in many cases, evitable extinction of certain species. If it doesn't make the mutations in their DNA, in an EVER-CHANGING Earth, then it will not survive. But if it can survive, but differently than the other species, then it will become two separate species one day, over time.

So if that is the case, you cannot say that the world was created (in the sense that the Bible says) with every single species ever to be on Earth, at one time. Dinosaurs, trilobites, etc. do you not see the fossils of these creatures, or are you in disbelief and believe these fossils are hoaxes? Do you not believe in extinction? If so, then you must believe in evolution.

It is sad, when people who believe in God, cannot accept the same reasons why people may not believe in God. If there is no tangible proof in Science, and there is no tangible proof in God, why cant people accept that both sides "could" be right.

I have trouble understanding why people can't reconcile faith (NOT religion) with science. Without evolution, we wouldn't have the knowledge of our world that we have today. The human brain and thought processes had to evolve down through the millenia to be able to have the understanding of our world that we do today. For those who can't comprehend that, I eagerly await the discovery of Mose's Ipod and Judas' hard drive. Excellent story, but the depth should have been included. For Truthi, Roger and the others, open your mind up a bit - don't you think God would like us to know the truth unclouded by superstition and mythology?

People need to learn to get along! This was a great article about how they found the deepest point in a river and discovered new species of fish and eels. But no, people have to argue evolution vs. religion. If they're the same or different, whats real and whats not, etc. A lot of us are not experts on the subjects. So what right do we have to critisize the work and make accusations of many great scientists who are actually researching it, not posting unresearched comments on a computer article?

A lot of good points here. I've gained a lot of true and accurate knowledge in the Bible. In doing so since evolution is such a hot topic in a world that's been hurt for so long by religionist's not being able to give sound,practical, accurate guidance when people needed it most(Darwin included since he was a christian till his daughter died); we've had to learn a lot about evolution to be able to reason from the Bible to others on this point. Being a christian, friends, doesn't mean we do not believe in evolution. After all God's word says that things will change but only in their kinds. (Gen.1:12,20,21) And this is the only evidence there is of evolution, this is the only facts. Things may change in their kinds such as it's reasonable to say in the beginning there was a dog and out of which from breading now are many kinds of dogs, the same with cats for example, but we do not see a dog and a cat breading producing something else. This is fact and goes by the natural laws that God set forth in the beginning. So much is tryin to prove God or the Bible wrong or each other wrong these days. It comes down to someones choice, God never forced someone to obey to his will we shouldn't brow beat someone to force them to go with our opinions either.

So if you find things swimming around in an unusual environment, then some of them must have changed their genome in response to the environment and are examples of evolution? Ask the same question that evolutionists have been ignoring decades- what about the tweeners? If this evolution took place, with small changes over many many years, each giving a slight advantage over the genome of the predecessor, then the river should be full of the greater number of tweeners than it would the current result of so-called evolution. And even in the current environment, your "long snouted" elephant fish should be outnumbered by "medium" snouted elephant fish, which should be outnumbered by "sorta longer snouted than normal, can't get dates very often" elephant fish. Sorry for the lame attempt at humor, but the numbers don't lie. Where are all of these small changes seen? In fact (yeah, a fact like gravity) these aren't seen, so you end up worshipping the god of hopeful evolution, wishing it were true, rather than the greater, more sensible likelihood that-like the environmentalists are pointing out- species are becoming extinct these days at a calculable rate, and they are not being replaced. No, not because "evil humans" are just horrible geneticidal maniacs, but maybe there were a lot more species at the beginning, and we haven't discovered them all, not examples of new species just because we haven't seen them yet. Just because Miss Stiassny discovered this fish for her first time, it does not mean that this fish was not there from day 5 of Biblical Creation week. Seems to me that rather than the environment pressuring animals into evolution, that the pressure of avoiding the thought of God at any cost is pressuring many to grab onto evolution with a lot more devotion than it deserves. It just doesn't make sense, to the impartial observer. And I must say, with their fervent devotion to anti-God thought, the evolutionists are far,far away from being impartial.

On and on it goes, but the bottom line is still the same, yes species adapt, and no they do not evolve. It has been shown that isolated finches can change over time to fill the niches of other birds etc. but none of them turned into a cat, or a dog, or a fish. The DNA of all living things has the ability to change and adapt over time but how it got there in the first place is the question. To think that everything evolved from nothing is not very intelligent. I could take the genetic material from all living things, blend them up, and put them in a primordial soup for a billion years and nothing would crawl out, and I'd be starting with the DNA already there! Time for the thinking evolutionist to figure it out, we were put here, you can argue about who or what put us here but not about the fact that we did not evolve from nothing, sorry that is a leap of faith that is beyond me.

The odds to determine whether life could come about by chance have actually been calculated. Proteins are complex molecules composed of amino acids and necessary for the chemical processes that occur in living organisms.

Fred Hoyle, one of the greatest scientists of the 20th century, and his colleague Chandra Wickramasinghe calculated the odds that all of the functional proteins necessary for life might form in one place by random event. The calculation is 10(40000). Since there are only 10(80) subatomic particles in the entire visible universe, the physicists concluded that this was “an outrageously small probability that could not be faced even if the whole universe consisted of organic soup!”

Trying to understand such odds staggers the imagination. The odds that natural selection could create the perfect combination of amino acids, to create useful protein molecules for the advancement of life, simply defy logic. Science is now beginning to realize the conclusions for the evolutionary model are false.

How can so many naive and benighted people looking at Smithsonian.com?

If you think evolution is a hoax, then please submit a peer reviewed scientific paper refuting it, or find someone who has. Science doesn't pretend to know everything or apply a simplistic idiotic answer to everything like the religious do. It's a slow and methodical process. When science gets something wrong, it has an interesting way to correct itself. Step into a biology classroom and enlighten yourself.

Further, to the person that said evolution can not increase information in the genome. Interesting how you inadequately define "information" and leave it as a vague reference up for interpretation. If you want to define it than please do. If you want reference to observation's of increased information and actual observations of evolution by anyone's definition of "information" then let me point you here:

Increased genetic variety in a population (Lenski 1995; Lenski et al. 1991)
increased genetic material (Alves et al. 2001; Brown et al. 1998; Hughes and Friedman 2003; Lynch and Conery 2000; Ohta 2003)
novel genetic material (Knox et al. 1996; Park et al. 1996)
novel genetically-regulated abilities (Prijambada et al. 1995)

Also, a river doesn't become a "fjord," a fjord is created by glaciers and has large cliffs along it.

Hoax or not its is part of life

ATTENTION ANTI-EVOLUTIONISTS;

Psalms 90:4. Yes, in your eyes a thousand years. are like yesterday that quickly passes...etc

Within a creationist belief system, there is room for recognition that an infinite being has no limitations where time is concerned. Why not view natural selection and "evolution" as a tool used by the creator?

Certainly a miraculous wave of the divine hand bringing about creation is no more wonderous and beautiful than the natural laws and logic that supports them - isn't this a miracle as well - that we as a species are evolving to understand our physical world better all the time?

Peace.

First of all, evolution is not a hoax. A hoax is something where the people who support the contention, know that it is false. The people who believe evolution, believe it to be true. So it is not a hoax.

But because evolution is not a hoax, it does not make it true. Some people make incredibly foolish statements about evolution. To say evolution is a fact like gravity is a fact is a foolish statement. It says more about the scientific and philosophical ignorance of the speaker than it does about evolution or gravity.

The theory of gravity is a different part of knowledge. It is experiential knowledge. It is predictive knowledge. We have a mathematically accurate theory of gravity. We can use it to make rigorous calculations which allow us to fly to the moon and back based on our theory. It is falsifiable. Gravity makes predictions that can be answered by simple yes or know experiments. Gravity is a theory of what will happen. Gravity can be demonstrated in the lab. There are very few parts of knowledge which belong to the small subset of knowledge which can be rigorously demonstrated by science to be almost for sure true. Gravity belongs to that small set of knowledge.

The theory of evolution is different. It is not a theory about what will happen, or does happen, but a theory of what has already happened. Not only that, it is a theory of what happened over millions of years. It is not something that can be demonstrated to be true. Even if examples of micro evolution are seen in the lab, macro evolution is something that can never be demonstrated to be true. It can only be projected to be true. It belongs to the much larger set of knowledge which must be believed only by faith.

To believe only in creationism, that is, to chalk up every thing in existence to some hocus-pocus, really does those who believe in a higher power a disservice, If you would believe in evolution and God, then evolution over billions of years, really is a miracle, just the incredible complexity of it all, from space to the deepest oceans, not only on just this planet alone, not to mention the billion of other planets where life may exist. Open up your minds and see that. For an interesting parallel, read "The Last Question" by Isaac Asimov.

Creation, the big bang and evolution, we tend to make this an "either/or" argument. But for Christians, all three exist. "God created the heavens and the earth," (big bang) then within all of Gods creation, there are some alterations in DNA. Who are we to limit God, the Creator, by assuming He isnt able to affect the world He made?

You never really KNOW anything untill you study it from all angles. If you think you know evolution or creation, I highly recomend you really do the research.

There is no scientific basis for the "fact" that the universe came out of NOTHING.

If every species came out of an electricuted puddle of mud, the evidence would be clear. There would be a lot more interspecies evidence. You cant just assume the Smithsonian has the evidence. A few weirdly mutated skeletons doesnt count either. If you really think about it, if all of creation had mutated from mud, then we would have a lot more rock solid evidence (ie. half species focils). Maybe the fact that so many species have similar traits can be explained by them having the same creator. If life evolved from a puddle of mud, why have they NEVER been able to recreate that event?

"If Darwinism is true, then there are five inescapable conclusions: there's no evidence for God, there's no life after death, there's no absolute foundation for right and wrong, there's no ultimate meaning for life, and people don't really have free will."
Lee Strobel, The Case for a Creator

We are nothing but an organism. Eating and excreating just like the tapeworm. We (everything) evolved here on this orb floating in the vacume of space. Never ending, Forever evolving. The (human) belief that we were created is a very good philosophy to help us live with our consciousness. If all the peoples of the world lived by the bible, This orb would be eden and heaven. Faith in a creator that we pass into an other world where we live forever only helps us deal with the nothingness after death. When we die thats it, lights out. Deal with it. How about this! Lets say you are already dead. OK Now when you die your life passe's before your eyes. How do you know that life is not passing before you eyes at this very moment? Da-javue ever had the feeling? Well your on auto-loop sitting on the creators desk waiting on god to decide if he sends you to heaven or hell. Good day

I don't see how God and evolution can be seperated. I believe that evolution is the clay of creation taking shape in God's hand. Be careful of assuming anything, He may not be finished and we are just a sideshow along the way.

As for the Congo (and the unexplored depths anywhere), GO GET'EM!! The more we know about our world, the better we can take care of it.

I thought I was reading an artical about a River in Africa. For all of you that squared off about evolution, creationalism, and gravity here is something to think about. Why is it that millions are allowed to die from malaria when it could be so easily controlled of course to do that control would take using a product banned by junk science. Can't say that well intented research is wrong.

What if god created species and gave them the ability to evolve?

Ok if evolution is a hoax why is there humanoid skeletons from millions of years ago,but no skeleton of a modern day human.

To all evolutionists, humor me for a moment. I'm sure you would all agree that best way to make an omelet is to....Take a carton of eggs, an electric skillet, butter, green peppers, onions (whatever you like in an omelet. Place these few simple ingredients in a box, tape the box up and throw it down a hill. Sounds ridiculous right? Well the odds of making a delicious omelet in this way are greatly more probable than all life on earth being formed by an evolutionary process. The numbers don't lie.

Charels Darwin said in order to prove evolution you would need skeletons of the various stages that brought primate to man. They dont exist. I will grant you that the average height of a person is 4 inches taller today then 150 years ago. To evolve from primates then we need a series of skeletons to show forth that change. where are they? There are two things scientists can't do. 1) create life 2). create something from nothing. There is a God now whether or not you want to accept the Judeo/Christian God of the Bible is your decision. I for one tend to think that if God created a race of beings(human) that He would watch over them as His own but allow them to make mistakes and make their own decisions even if they are harmful to themsleves or others.

I love how people state their "belief" as fact, i.e. "God created everthing!!!!" how do you know? You dont! You believe and have faith that god created everything, but it is in no way a fact. And just because something is written in a book thats been around for a while does not make it more true. I seem to remember a time when people believed that there were a bunch of gods, sitting on a mountain, controlling everything about their daily lives. For a long time, these gods were just as real as your god to a lot of people. Then someone came along and convinced people to believe something else. Whos to say that those gods are fake and yours is real?

This isn't a debate about God. It's a debate about evolution. God (creation) and evolution are two seperate things. Evolution is a single cell micro organism that evolves into a two celled organism. It has evolved. Please chose your words wisely.

I think it's funny how you all get so worked up. If you trully believe what you believe whatever you believe, then, except for some type of insecurity within yourself, what someone else believes shouldn't affect you so much. That goes for the atheists, agnostics, and christians. To bash each other weakens both your arguments, and makes you sound petty rather than influential. I personally am a creationist, but I can see that if you don't believe in God, then evolution could be a viable option. I will even go so far as to say that neither can be proven apart from a faith in the belief itself. No, evolutionists do not have undeniable proof of "macro" evolution apart from the micro evolutionary evidence, and christians cannot prove scientifically God's existence. All this to say, we have our reasons for believing what we do, but reading through these comments was like listenning to children argue on the playground. Ignorance and what is considered knowledgable is relative.

In regards to evolution and gravity, remember theories are just that, theories! Sir Newton made his hypothysis thru scientific observation. Mr. Darwin thru ingenious speculation. Gravity has sound mathematical principles which prove "it's" existence inside and out. Evolutionism is the imperfect "science" in which measurement, posturizations, and conjecture of a select group try to connect families of organisms into evolving species.

My opinion is that Mr. Darwin's theory is just an advanced "spontaneous generation" from the middle ages. Sure there is some great data out there, however consider this. If a person were a potter, who over many decades perfected his craft to create his masterpiece, would it not have many similarities to his first novice work? Life is so complex and diverse it screams the existence of a creator. I call him GOD.

As for the comment that religous people are unimformed, please Google "Christian Apologetics". Notice the Greek root of the word. It does not imply that one is sorry, it means to reconcile common knowledge as it pertains to or contrasts with Godly belief. History is full of Highly Educated Christians who still see thru "Man's Knowledge" to believe in "God's Knowledge".

In response to Evolution:

Evolution is a THEORY, not FACT. It cannot now, nor has it ever been, proven. It has also not been disproved. You can't say that it is fact on the basis that it can't be disproved. If that were the case, you could say the same about Creation. You cannot disprove Creation, therefore it must be fact. This is a fundamental conflict.

If you use carbon dating to support Evolution, keep this in mind; a study was performed in recent years in which a sample of wood was cut into several pieces and sent to various carbon-dating labs. When the information came back, the difference in age as determined by each lab was astounding. Some lab results reported the sample as being Millions of years old. Others report it was thousands of years old. Others still reported it was merely decades old. The truth is, it was a limb cut from a tree that had only been alive for less than a decade. It was then exposed to an open flame for a short period of time, then cut up and sent to the labs. This is all the evidence one needs in order to totally discredit the whole idea of carbon dating.

In response to Creation:

Come on people. You are all giving Christians and Creationists a bad name. Take time to understand that yours is not the only idea or opinion out there. You can no more prove Creation than an evolutionist can prove Evolution. To discount Evolution and the theories that surround it as total farse is a mistake on your behalf. You hold your beliefs and there is nothing wrong with that. But rather than tell the Evolutionists out there that they're stupid is foolish. Ignorant maybe, but not stupid. Ignorance is simply "not knowing".

No one TRULY knows the origin of it all. Evolutionists believe what they do because the scientific community presents it as FACT rather than the THEORY it actually is. You believe in Creation because the Bible and your faith present it as FACT rather than religion.

Plus these humanoid species have been noticed to be ape like. Meaning that all humans were origionaly like an ape and slowly evolved to be better suited to the enviroment. I even saw one fossil that made it look like humans used to climb trees like apes and monkies.

Hello Creationists:
You have one book saying that GOD created everything. That is your only source of so called proof. This religious text was compiled from a bunch of stories and written thousands of years ago.

Secondly, how can you even attempt to attack the theory of evolution.
The theory of GOD the creator, the judger, the almighty has been more debated than anything else in history. The fact is to believe in GOD you have to have faith. Faith itself begs for inconsistences, questions, assumptions, hopes etc. None of these adjectives mentioned were facts or proof.

There are many religions with many other religious texts as well. Are they completely wrong?

If you are believers in GOD...a GOD that is the creator everything and the creator of nothing. Is light and is the dark. Is the earth, water, air, space. Is not the earth, water, air, space. Then God would be the creationist and is also the evolutionist. You should believe that b/c of GOD (who is everything in totality) then there are limitless possibilites. Not just one.

By denying evolution and other religious beliefs/texts you are blinding yourself to a whole other realm of possibilities out there. Would God want that?

Evolution gets a bad wrap because no one ever explains it properly or they just don't really get it. Evolution is the pressure of time. For example over time a food source for an animal may disappear in an ecosystem. The animals die off. If there happened to be a few of them with some altered DNA over time that allowed them to make use of a second food source, they will have the ability to continue to live, hence evolution. Now this species is different. Evolution isn't an active process, the organisms don't go out and try to find a way to be better, to put it simply evolution is luck. When the environment changes if you have the ability to survive you live, YAY!! Also to those who keep saying gravity is a fact, no it is not. Gravity is a theory and one we don't understand that well. The only fact is that if you jump you come back to the surface of the earth and that the planets are stuck in a path and don't usually veer too far from it. And what scientists say that DNA and RNA are too complex. HA! How much more simple can you get than four molecules. Its just a basic production line, from the reading of the DNA to the protein. From the chemical and biological standpoints we understand it pretty well. How could it be "alien", it is life.

I too, am a scientist, and I've found that most scientists who believe in "Intelligent Design", and claim that they go to church, and say that evolution and faith are not exclusive of each other, are simply using their "faith" as a guilty-conscience cover.
Religion has no meaning or value in science.
Theism is one of great faults of mankind, hopefully we can evolve beyond these prehistoric supserstions.

how did a news article about the deepest river and the "discovery" of a new species evolve into such an argumentive debate? the subject was really educational until everyone suddenly got involved into their own religious and personal beliefs. whether the "discovery" has influenced the belief in god is irrevelent. the fact that science is reseaching and finding answers to how we impact our surroundings is. please stay on the subject

Here is a question for the religious types: During the whole 40 day flood thing, they only mention land animals being saved. I would imagine, through a hypotheses, that after the entire world was covered by a flood that the salt water and fresh water would combine. Seeing as how the oceans are far bigger (in volume) than all lakes, rivers, etc., this would make all of the water in the world salty. The question here is, did Noah take two of every type of fresh water fist with him as well? If not, how did they survive the salinity? We won't even talk about what drowning land plants with salt water would do.... Seriously, please explain this to me in a non-biblical way.

Evolution is a fact ... and as simple to understand as water running downhill and cutting canyons. Three things must happen: (1) individuals vary in form, physiology, and behavior; (2) some of that variation is heritable (passed from parents to offspring); and (3) some forms leave offspring at higher rates than others (that is, they have higher fitness). If these three assumptions hold, then over time a population becomes dominated by the fitter forms. The three assumptions are manifestly correct for most populations – ergo, evolution occurs.

To those who parrot the creationist delusion that no one has ever SEEN evolution happen, or new species appear – join the 21st century! Hundreds of selection experiments have shown evolutionary change over short time periods. When the bacterium Pseudomonas fluorescens is introduced to a flask, in THREE DAYS it diverges into three morphs that live on the surface, on the walls, and in the fluid. New species of insects have been repeatedly created in the lab by selecting against individuals that mate with those from other populations.

To those who believe that the children's story of Genesis explains all we need to know about biological diversity: How did the flightless moas got to New Zealand from Mt. Ararat, where Noah's ark supposedly came to rest? Did they swim? How did Noah and his family survive, given that they had to be infected with every parasite, every venereal disease known, if these disease-causing species that infect only humans were to survive the flood?

It never ceases to amaze me how people who are ignorant of most of the facts about life on earth have the brass to tell others that evolution is wrong and offer their opinion as to how life began and diversified. Yet these people never feel compelled to argue exactly how a TV works, or to feel they couldn't trust on expert on TVs to repair theirs when it doesn't work.

I FIND IT AMUSING THAT THERE ARE SO MANY PEOPLE WHO THINK THEIR BELIEFS ARE THE ONLY TRUTH. IF WE AS KEEPERS OF THIS PLANET ARE NOT WILLING TO ACCEPT NEW EVIDENCE OF HOW LIFE EVOLVED THEN WE WILL NEVER LEARN THE TRUTH. LET US NOT BE BLIND TO EVIDENCE AND CLOSE OUR MINDS.

Who's to say that god didn't create life with evolution in mind?

**Just read the comment by alex, all the way with you sir**

Not sure if this has been said yet but, is it so hard to believe in both God and Evolution? Is it that insane to believe that god did creat the earth, and planted the seeds of life as we know it? only to see it grow in which way it saw fit? After all is that not one of the gifts god gave us, the freedom to choose. Who is to say that he let us evolve ( choose ) which way we saw fit. To me I believe in evolution, but I also believe in a higher power ( whoever, whatever I choose to label it ) that created us, but I would be a fool to not believe whats in front of my eyes everytime I go to a museum and see the early steps of man.

To all my fellow believers of faith, does the bible not teach tolerance and forgiveness? The people posting here stating that evolution is a hoax or that for people not believing in god will burn in hell are not interpreting the teaching correctly and need to go back and understand god and themselves and know that the bible is NOT fact. It is a book written by man and as we all can see by postings here man is flawed. I believe in a connection with god and myself and I do not need a book to tell me how to have that connection. I use the book as guideline on how to better understand my relationship with god.

JM

I always figured evolution is just God fine tuning his creations.

Well, I don't want to get pulled into this "evolutions" discussion here....

... But it's it so interesting how these people limit God with their own narrow field of view?

What is wrong with the thinking that evolution could be one of the way God works in these lower universe. And so is gravity. God created gravity -so that we can function the way we do in this earth.

I think we constantly try to mix up earth with heavens. In earth, things work in certain ways, where in heaven it might be different.

For the people who doesn't believe in evolution, all I can say to them is... Please don't get mixed up. Earth is not the place where you can walk on the water or come back to life after you are crucified. Go with the rule that God has provided for us... and understand.

A lot of things are not explained in the Bible --yes I am a beliver. Just this, The Bible and God tells us why we are here. Science ATTEMPS to tell us how.To try to prove or disprove one with the other is a loosing arguement Do not try to mix the two.

"Is it not possible for evolution to be a follow up of creation? Is it not possible that God created all things and then evolution or natural selection took over? Keep thinking." correct!

I agree with that. People always seem to ignore that option.

By the way, for those who believe God created everything, where did God come from??

Why in the world do people have to argue with each other about science and religon when something like this comes up. Why do you ruffle each others feathers. Your not even talking about the subject your just arguing about religon and science. I'm catholic but I think evolution could have happend. I say could have because I wasn't there back then and I don't know for sure but to tell you the truth I don't care.The thing is I'm here right now in tis time and age and humans started from somewhere. You shouldn't believe the bible word for word. Genisis is just a story to explian where we come form. I not saying there isn't a God becuase I believe there is, but I'm saying that maybe God didn't create the world in seven day maybe he did it 7 million day I don't care. I believe God began life and I believe that evolution might of began after he was done with us. I don't see why you argue with each other so much. Just believe what you want to believe and let time take its course.

God created all life on this planet......by way of evolution.

There, an theory that agrees with both sides, now....CAN YOU PLEASE STOP ARGUING ABOUT EVERY MINUTE OF THE DAY!!!

Hm. I thought the article was pretty harmless to begin with...but then, as always any mention ofevolution brings out the creationists (and thankfully) some fence riders. So, here's a thought to consider: Mankind was not as it is today as when it was created (by whatever means). Simple questions can be difficult to answer. For example: Did Adam know how to create and harness fire right away? Did Adam instinctually know how to build a boat, a wheel, a car, an airplane, a computer? Nope. All those things and many more took time to develop. Therefor evolution does exist. Next Question: Did God bless mankind with the ability to evolve over time? It seems that one who believes in God would answer "yes". No harm, no foul in that. Believe whatever you want, but I garauntee that Adam won't be dropping you off at the airport ;)

To the person who wrote about theory is based on fact. By the very definition, theory is NOT fact. I have read articles of events in erosion that were witnessed to happened in days that were exact to those that were thought to have happened over a million years.

CALL ME LAZY BUT, I find it easier to believe in religion than evolution. In religion you believe Jesus (who did exist) was god and if you believe you will have eternal life and a couple basis beliefs.

IN EVOLUTION you must believe hundreds of different human beings who have hundreds of "Theories" about hundreds of different things. You have to trust them and have faith in what they say even though they sell their theories to you to make money and be famous.

YOU MUST BELIEVE EVOLUTIONIST HAVE FOUND THE EXACT SPOT WHERE THE BIG BANG OCCURRED 13 BILLION YEARS Ago. At that distance if you move the point of a pin one billionth of a inch to the left or right, you would not be able to find the big bang. I personally believe it occurred in the opposite direction from where they say it did; or maybe to the left or right; can't remember which way but then, I DON'T CARE. Intelligent Design (Or God if you wish - same thing) is more realistic!!!!!!!!!!!

How can you not accept evolution, when god himself evolved? In the beginning, there were gods for everything: wind, rain, sun, moon, earth, volcanoes, hurricanes, rivers, trees, etc. God eventually evolved into the one-god THEORY that so many here hold near and dear. So can't nature be shown the same respect? Whatever it was that created the universe, the universe has since evolved into what it is today. Pardon me for saying this, but I accept as proof that all life on this planet arose from single-celled organisms because there is complex multi-cellular life here today. The presence of this variety of life is confirmation enough for me that it did occur. And I have to say this: Science takes a statement and subjects it to all sorts of competing, compelling points of view, all trying to disprove what was said. It is that rigorous debate that gives science its credibility. Religion takes a book written by man, and demands faith to believe in its views, and uses the smallest of any example as proof of its faith. This faith cannot be questioned, and that is why, while I accept the presence of the devine, I do not accept any religious theory. I have faith in God, but not in close-minded religious dogma.

If I cannot intellectually understand something, it therefore does not exist. My deepest fear is that of something all-powerful, which I can neither "grasp" with my physical senses, nor define on the basis of any human undderstanding. To accept the "reality" of such a being (Creator/God)requires one to relinquish control of my own intellectual position of power to an unknown entity. This is unacceptable to me, as a member of the most advanced species (yet known) on this planet. I do wish peace to all who share & who do not share my beliefs...

Doug Chivers, Chris and Steven:

Of course we did not evolve from apes/monkeys. We share a common ancestor with them, as we do with all other animals.

Norm:

As for the Earth, it (and the other planets in our solar system) formed from the leftover material that orbited our sun after its formation. Stars are usually formed from clouds of gas and dust.

Where did all the gas and dust come from originally? Scientists tell us it is a result of the Big Bang - you know what that is. Whether or not that was "caused" by an intelligence, the fact is I don't know and neither do you. If it comforts you to say a god did it, more power to you. For me, I am satisfied with the fact that it is unknowable.

Cheers

600 years ago it was scientifically accepted that the world was flat. 200 years ago it was scientfically accepted to bleed a person for almost any illness. 100 years ago it was scientifically accepted to use radioactive material in elixers for the the common cold. It's amazing how smart all these guys thinks they are. Lets wait another 100 yrs to find out how ignorant we all are!!!! No matter how good the theories sound no one has ever proven evolution. When you insult someone who does not believe in evolution by calling them a Christian you sound just as ignorant as you are trying to make them out to be!!!!!

Hasn't the concept of God also evolved over the ages? Isn't the concept of God adapted to the cultural and environmental circumstances of a society? Doesn't quantum physics seem somewhat faith-based? Religion and science both are constructs of humanity's desire to explain the mysteries of existence. The difference appears to be that religions rely on historical writings, whereas science actively searches for present evidence.

Does it really matter from where we originated when we have so many pressing issues confronting our present survival?

First, a theory is never considered proven and if a theory happens to be considered "proven" it is then called a law. Knowing this there can be substantial evidence for, or against, a theory as which there should be in order to test that theory.

The theory of (micro) evolution can be widely supported knowing that mutation, genetic drift, natural selection, gene flow, and non-random mating all occur. Macro evolution has much less credibility as not one person has ever witnessed it, or found hard evidence supporting it, but this does not make it impossible. Just the same, one cannot prove, or disprove, the stories found in the Bible. Yes, some beliefs seem impossible, but they are just lacking hard evidence and go through the same process.

Finally, knowing that the Bible cannot be proven, or disproven, just as the theory of (macro) evolution cannot who is to say one is possible and the other is not. The only objective way to look at this is to understand both are possible. It is possible that God created everything just as it says in the Bible and still follow the theory of evolution. A "day" to God is undisclosed and therefore could be less than one second, or one million years, or even longer. If this is unnderstood, why is it not possible for both evolution and the Bible to coexist?

I am not asking one to believe one thing or another, but to put aside your beliefs and think, "What is possible".

The odds to determine whether life could come about by chance have actually been calculated. Proteins are complex molecules composed of amino acids and necessary for the chemical processes that occur in living organisms. Fred Hoyle, one of the greatest scientists of the 20th century, and his colleague Chandra Wickramasinghe calculated the odds that all of the functional proteins necessary for life might form in one place by random event. The calculation is 10(40000). Since there are only 10(80) subatomic particles in the entire visible universe, the physicists concluded that s this was “an outrageously small probability that could not be faced even if the whole universe consisted of organic soup!” (Evolution from Space, Fred Hoyle. JM Dent and Sons, London, 1981.)

Trying to understand such odds staggers the imagination. The odds that natural selection could create the perfect combination of amino acids, to create useful protein molecules for the advancement of life, simply defy logic.

The idea that amino acids could even arise from pre-biotic soup to form the chemical basis for life came from the Miller-Ulney experiment. Science is now beginning to realize the conclusions for the evolutionary model are false.

the thing is that people think that evolution says we evolved from monkeys.. thats not wat it says it says we evolved from a common ancestor

To all those people that say GOD created everything.
Who then created GOD?
He can't create himself and he wasn't just there.
So who or what created him\her?

Funny no one really ever has a true answer to this.

Man that's very interesting. Any pics?

I LOVE THE ELEPHANT FISH IT IS REALLY COOL I WISH I COULD CATCH ONE

A few notes for the anti-evolution crowd:

1) You're right in saying that man did not evolve from monkeys. Just ask any evolutionary scientist. Darwin himself wrote an entire book on the subject ("the Descent of Man").

2) "Evolution is a theory" does not mean someone just thought of it and decided it's true. In science "theory" means heavily supported by facts and evidence. Gravity is not explained by a "Law" of gravity. It is explained by a theory, which is a set of laws. The same goes for evolution.

3) Charles Darwin tested his theory partly through research and partly by testing arguments against it. An entire chapter of "On the Origin of Species Through Means of Natural Selection" is devoted to these arguments. Unfortunately, many of them are still being used as though they are absolutely valid.

4) As to an animal suddenly, magically giving birth to a new species, you're right, it doesn't happen. If it did, both sides of the debate would have to go back and rethink everything. This is not how evolution works. In fact, in the original introduction to "On the Origin of Species Through Means of Natural Selection," Darwin dismisses the value of another book which he believed stated exactly that.

The article makes me wanna go fishin'

PART 1 -

'God', and religion, are products of Evolution, not the other way around. Religion is a social mechanism which allowed tribal groups to cooperate since they were organized by the religious belief system which was an abstraction allowing inter-tribal order. Religions were also important storehouses of environmental information - for economic survival, and of cosmology - mankind's place in the universe.

The water temples of Bali serve to balance irrigation, the corn rituals of the Hopi regulate their planting and harvest, and the Jewish and Islamic prohibitions against eating pork prevents trichinosis. These environmental and health rules werved a purpose.

Since early religious times, the city state, feudal state, empire, and nation have evolved to provide ever larger systems of order; not just trans-tribal, but now trans-religious. In other words, the nations were becoming geographically larger than the religious geography; and some religions, such as Christianity, allied itself with armies so that it may hitch a ride, like an invasive species, and spread around the world.

I WOULD NOT BE IN A PIROGUE WITH 40 FOOT WIDE WHIRLPOOLS

Surely, exotic fish at bottom of the Congo must always be "evolving". In "50 or 100" years humans near the poles will have "evolved" genetics too and developed fur, separated by the "barrier of heat" in the equator.

Just came up with proof to my theory: 'Recent global warming' is preventing the fur from developing..

Whenever I see the evolution theory being pushed as fact to say the amazing complexity and diversity of the natural world is self-made (and therefore God had nothing to do with it), the only thing I see proof of is how stubborn we are.

The media only showcases biologists who subscribe to the evolutionary theory (wrong facts and all) in a try-hard effort to not even consider the possibility that nature could have been created by a superior being. Because man -wrong facts and all-, knows everything. In trying so hard, it's making evolution seem like the theory of excuses. Replace "fact" by "unproven ideas" and that's evolution.

My first visit to this site, and what an eye-opener.Fascinating to discover a whole group of people who think that evolution means I personally descended from the grandfather of the monkey in the jungle. I'm British, and seriously wonder what American educators are up to!
Just a thought - there are the Bible, the Torah and the Koran with the earth made in 6 days. Other people have other beliefs - why should I tell them they are wrong and I am right? The answer 'Because they are' gets a C-.
Angela

I am totally confused now.. How did an article about the depth of the Congo turn into an argument about evolution verses creationism? Are the creationists now so afraid of science that they can no longer accept any new scientific discovery as fact, without having to distract people with the same old worn out arguments they've been using for 2,000 years?
Lesson #1 if reason has been unable to effect the religious right for 171 years, I believe it is highly unlikely that it will suddenly occur, as a result of any argument, however well made, that any of us could post here.

Why can't God and evolution work together? After all, the Bible says that one human's life time is equivalent to the time it takes God to inhale once. So, who knows how long seven days in Genesis really was? And, after all, can't God have put all the stuff here that we all needed and let evolution, another one of his creations, take the reins?

Everyone has their own opinions and beliefs. Stop arguing and just get along. Everybody love everybody!

Some of the pro-evolution comments and all of the anti-evolution comments posted here lack accuracy and are poorly informed. I realize that many do not wish to be informed, but for those who open to learning, the amount of evidence for the relatedness of lifeforms is enormous. Before DNA was discovered--and in fact before Darwin was born, plants and animals were grouped into families by God-fearing scientists, including Linnaeus, the founder of modern taxonomy. They did not know why organisms within a group resembled each other, but they could see easily see common features. Mammals shared mammary glands and nursing their young. Reptiles shared scales were cold-blooded. Fish were had scales and were cold-blooded, but had gills for breathing under water. The early taxonomists could see patterns, but they thought that God had arbitrarily made things that way. Darwin came along a proposed the obvious--there is a family tree stretching across the eons, and organisms sharing similar traits are from the same major branches. You know this in your own family histories, comparing grandchildren to grandparents to cousins on the other side.

Evolution is hardly fact...it is a well-founded theory but nothing more. Facts in biologic science are rare indeed. Only an individual that doesn't understand science would state otherwise.

Since the discovery of chromosomes and DNA, most of the similarities seen by the creationist taxonomists are now supported at the molecular level. The same sequences of DNA code for the same proteins across all life forms. These proteins produce the structure we see, and differences in the genetic code produce differences in structures. There are even numerous mistakes made when genetic material is copied--these can be mutations that help or hinder, or that are neutral in effect. The neutral mistakes accumulate as "junk DNA" that are retained as part of the basic code. Amazingly, we can find the same mistake in an identical section of human and mouse DNA, indicating that the two are part of the same lineage.
It is one thing to say, "I don't believe in evolution", but it is much more difficult to explain how creation actually works. If God created everything, fine, but why do we see the patterns out there of animals being related to other animals? Why are apples and pears similar while an orange is different, yet resembles a lemon? Clearly they are families, and family means common ancestry. And then there are the genetic mistakes were see--why would God make a copy mistake, and why would mammals share the same mistake?

I'm so confused that so many people who claim to believe in God as the sole creator would even be reading this article. I've read through a few posts and most of them don't know much about biology to begin with. The meaning of this study is lost on most of you simply because you lack the mental capacity to understand complex things. There was a post that said that there are tons of land locked streams and lakes in Canada. Yes there is but there isn't as much genetic diversity there because it is a much cooler climate. Colder climates simply don't have as much flora and fauna as an ecosystem near the equator would. What is so interesting about this article is that they are able to study the species in this river as they are just starting their genetic drift and its all happening within a few feet of each other because the river currents are too fast for the fish to cross and they get stuck on one side or the other. But like I said, this information is wasted on you. So again, why would you try and read something you can't possibly understand?

It always amuses me when Christians get upset about evolution. There were no dinosaurs, the earth was created in one 7 day 24 hour a day week about 6,000 years ago, we will shout louder than you until we get our way.
I happen to be a Christian that believes the earth is billions of years old, and that the dinosaurs once thrived here.
I also believe that Genesis is a wonderful tale that must be taken with grain of salt.
The ONLY really important part of the Bible is the part where we learn that God used the blood of his Son to wash our sins away, and we can be granted everlasting life if we believe.

Cool story, but evolution...really? Too funny!

Someone commented that evolution is false because no one has actually "witnessed" it take place, and then continues to say that "God's holy book" tells us the origin of the universe. Oh yeah? Were you there to witness him/her writing it? Oh wait... God didn't write the book... some people did. But you didn't witness that either, did you? It's not that I don't believe in a greater power and I don't want to put anyone down that has faith in God, but I'm more likely to believe in something that has actual scientific background as opposed to a book about a death defying savior and a guy spreading a sea in half. Why are people who are so devoted to religion believe it's true because a book told you it is? Wouldn't that justify Darwin being correct? It's a book... and he believed it. Guess that must make it true.

Interesting article and comments from a variety of different people. But my question is, who cares whether evolution is real or not? Things are they way they are no matter what anyone believes in or thinks. However, I do find it interesting to know that there are unknown species being discovered all the time and probably a lot more that hasn't been discovered. God is there that gives free will. Why can't that be applied to species as well? Sure, it is true, in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth but that was just the start of things. I don't think He just goes around creating species now just so mankind can find them. He started things when He created heaven and earth and so things went from there. No matter what you call it or believe in, species are evolving all the time into new species based on their environment. Man's environment is so that I don't think it can really evolve like the species that do, known or unknown. That and the chemicals and nuclear waste man is putting into the earth, I feel, also has an impact of how things evolve and/or change, again based on their environment and where they are located. And whether or not their area is free of those chemicals. Doesn't anyone think or realize what kind of effect that has on things? I don't think anyone knows nor do they know where the chemicals and waste have traveled to and what kind of impact it has had on the earth.

It is my understanding that two elements are required to support the start of life. One is that you need enzymes and
second you need protein.

From a pile of dust you can get enzymes. However, there is no possible way to get protein from that pile of dust. Therefore,it was creation that kick started life on this planet.

Now that you have life, evolution takes place because of the differences in food, water, altitude, location, work, environmental constraints, and many other factors.
There are many groups of people around this globe that are very different from one another. However, all groups have one head,two arms and two legs. Within each group there are some aspects that are similar, yet differ from other groups.

I do not believe in evolution. These species of fish have long been in existence even before Adam and Eve -- man is only discovering them now. No living thing evolves to another.

If you truly believe in a creating God who stands apart from the universe, and if you also believe in intellectual integrity, then this is position left for you:

Darwin was mostly right. Life forms are related. They do evolve over time.

What has not been explained is how life started, or why in the Cambrian age it developed so extraodinarily fast. If there is a place a being outside the system to be involved, this would be it. The risk here is that science might also find an explanation for these things--however, as of now, there is not a solid mechanistic explanation for the origins of life.

......so how deep was the river? I missed it. :(

If we evolved from primates, why are there still primates?
Why didn't they evolve?

Interesting article.

Yep... God could have created all things and then evolution took over. Or maybe God is the evolved form of something else. Chicken or the egg... your choice.

I appreciate the thoughtful and intelligent posts. I find it more telling that those with Christian beliefs are more civil and considerate toward dissenting arguments. Christians are simply happier and have a more satisfying sense of community and concern for others. This "love", also irrational and reducible to chemical reactions would seem counter to survival and prosperity as it often results in actions to save those natural selection would reasonably destroy. Yet, those presenting more "love" are more content and comforted, better able to cope and those most willing to sacrifice in the care of others (or for "love") are often elevated to permanent or near-permanent historical relevance even if such a position is attained through martyrdom. Faith, hope and love...

I've always wondered about science and religion. I read a book called mormon scientist by henry j.eyring. It answered my questions. Don't judge untill you've read it.

I see a lot of arguing about evolution and creation. Isn't it possible that BOTH phenomenons took place (and still does?) In history, why were people from the east continent more advanced then Native Americans? WHO or what causes the mutation in the DNA? Could God be getting bored with us? All this arguing may be grounds for him to wipe us out and start fresh.

Let us not forget.Religion requires faith,and many times discourages question and critical thought.In science,however,we pose the hypothetical,then set forth to disprove the hypothesis.Questions are not only encouraged,but urgently required.Sometimes discoveries are made along the way,and we are reminded just how important science truly is.In many cases throughout history,we see that this approach does not work with the religious.What we find instead is war, persecution,and anarchy resulting in the destruction of not only life but knowledge as well. When faced with questions concerning faith,I am forced to remember that faith is relevant only in the absence of knowledge.Faith seems helpful only when truth is not important.

Evolution is just an idea, scientifically speaking it is not even a theory, because it has not been proven. Like every falsehood every answer it gives throws up a dozen more un-answered questions.

Some of the blame for this confusion must go to organised religion, "christiandom" in particular for missrepresenting the creator and engendering revolsion with their sets of false teachings which creats doubts in the minds of thinking persons ... leading them away from God.

Those who doubt the existence of God are in a delima to explain their existence ... and evolution simply fills the gap.

This might have been true of Charles Darwin ..... accroding to Historian Alistair McGrath, it was Darwin's "distaste" for the church's doctrine of hellfire that raised doubt in his mind about the existence of God ... The sad thing is that the doctrine of hellfire itself is a falsehood, just like the teaching of evolution.... Let's give the man some credit though..at least he started another religion, for those who want to deny the existence of God.

don't get your theories and theorems confused. When the theory of evolution becomes a proven fact, it will be called the theorem of evolution.

If I may quote someone from history

October 10, 1895, when Professor Bonney, F.R.S., Canon of Manchester, read a paper in which he said: "I cannot deny that the increase of scientific knowledge has deprived parts of the earlier books of the Bible of the historical value which was generally attributed to them by our forefathers. The story of Creation in the Book of Genesis, unless we play fast and loose either with words or with science, cannot be brought into harmony with what we have learnt from geology. Its ethnological statements are imperfect, if not sometimes inaccurate. The stories of the Fall, of the Flood, and of the Tower of Babel, are incredible in their present form. Some historical element may underlie many of the traditions in the first eleven chapters in that book, but this we cannot hope to recover."

TO:Lew
I disagree with you. Natural selection is meant to weed out the weak from the strong to get the best result for any species. Evolution is mutating or adapting. The example of the Dolphins blow hole is a land species adapting to a water environment, not natural selection.

I must have missed it. How DEEP is this river?! The title is "... the Deepest River in the World".

It's so sad to read so many comments from folks who either didn't graduate from high school yet, slept through Biology class, or had a teacher that didn't teach the proper curriculum required of him/her in the first place. I'm sorry(not really) to bring this news to everyone but Evolution is a fact. The Theory of Evolution describes the mechanisms and processes involved. Please understand that over 250,000 published, peer-reviewed(therefore satisfying the Scientific Method that all proper scientists follow) and proven supportive hypotheses explaining the TofE, are currently in existence. To have a position of not accepting this is troubling to this Biology teacher. Please either go back to school or read ANY Biology text book that is State approved or University textbook on the subject. I would suggest you stay away from schools(ie- Liberty U, Regency U., or many faith based schools)that put a nonscientific spin on this well accepted Theory. A Theory is the highest position held in Science. To get to this lofty place of consensus among the top scientists in each field takes decades. Many times, several disciplines within science collaborate and collectively support a theory.
A popular quote comes to mind;
"Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored."- Aldous Huxley

If this information conflicts with teachings from clergy, one must question the source and the evidence supporting their position(none). DNA, fossils, bacteriology, virology, Anatomy(homologous structures,analogous structures), embryology, molecular biology, geology, paleontology and many more fields have contributed to the massive pool of evidence. Please do some nonfictional reading. On a final note. Interestingly, no theological questions came up when I took my teaching board exam. Not one. Go figure. Science has no room for bias or opinion. That's why we all trust it's findings. Just you typing on your computer keyboard tell's me you accept it's methods and findings. Peace

A very interesting article that sadly has been hi-jacked by the "earth is flat" and "spontaneous generation" cabal. I find it interesting that with all the hoopla about creationism and "intelligent design" the "theory" of evolution has NOT been disproven, but it's case added and enhanced by more probing and research. People seem to forget that "Origin of the Species" was published in 1859. Darwin had it right, but some of his underlying questions couldn't be answered because of limited techlogical resources of the period.

Creationists have gotten so desperate in proving their point that they have resorted to having T. Rex, a carnivore, walking side by side with humans in a museum! What I see coming out today is "Junk Science" where information presented by creationists and intelligent design wops border on "snake oil" science.

To those who desperately cling to the fact that evolution is a theory my challenge to you is: DISPROVE THE THEORY!

Well in my opinion the fact is " GOD IS TRUTH " while everything else in close introspection comes out to be unreal. Problem is we do not have the right equipments to measure, although we are getting better, but its an endless journey ... we should be looking inwards to really understand who we are, to understand the outer world.

My apologies if this comment bothers people having another opinion.

Would I be out of line if I asked if anyone would object if I go fishing with these researchers??? There is nothing better than fish right out of the river right into the frying pan.

Actually we know much more about evolution than we do about gravity. Nobody doubts gravity because its effects are directly observable every second of every day. Evolution takes generations in most cases and can not be directly observed.

The processes of evolution are pretty clear, but yet we don't know some basic things about gravity such as what causes objects to have mass, what causes gravity, and how the gravitational force is transmitted.

Based on this simple summary I would say that the theory of evolution is many times more sound than gravitational theory. Yet people never doubt gravity because the effects are obvious. If those who doubt would actually do some research they would see what I mean, or perhaps they are just in denial.

Another amazing story of the depth and beauty of life on this planet. I am so grateful for the blessing of knowledge.

And another infinite argument that serves only to drive our own species further apart from our human bond with one another and with nature herself, while we remain the singular species that mindlessly destroys the world around us.

Pretend for a moment that we all just awakened from a global amnesia...and we know nothing of religion or science. We know not even if we are elephant fish or human. But we know this: with love and compassion for one another and for all that surrounds us, we would live in peace, and harmony, and happiness. And God would finally smile!

P.S. Get 350!...350.org

I have no problem believing that we evolved from primates/monkeys...i do have a problem believing that we were created from dirt. Im not some orc from "The lord of the Rings".

Lets see, God created heavan and earth and in about 3 billion years the sun runs out of fuel and heavan and earth cease to exist.. Sounds like a cruel joke on his/her part..

Regret that journalists and scientists must publicize their information under headings "biggest, fastest, most..." to get attention. The "mundane" we humans hardly understand, like this river ecology, is what's plenty interesting without marketing it as "special." The article in itself is sufficiently interesting to most people. That comments went into a debate on evolution is sad, but also linked to the notion that for many readers, topics must be twisted to extremes of religion or personal values that should be kept private.

Hebrews 11:3

By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible

Ummm ok so if god created the world then that means god created the process of evolution. (Sorry it happens folks). Therefore those that say anyone is going against god by believing in evolution is going against god by saying evolution does not exist. Very basic though for anyone who claims to be a creationist and yet that one point shows them how hypocritical they are.

I can't wait until humans become extinct. We destroy so much. There are so many species on this earth and we are the only ones that do contribute to it. We do not belong on this planet because we are dangerous and parasitic.

If the creationists would actually take the time to read scientific publications and attempt to put their bias aside they might just think that God has allowed for evolution. It is certainly logical to think that the creationists would condemn any scientific publication, if they actually read them, that might show any hint of irregularity in their content that might point to contradictions in the publication. The Bible is full of contradiction, just take the resurrection of Jesus Christ for example. All of the first several books of the Bible contradict each other on various "Facts" of this supposed event.

I certainly have some belief in a higher power or God if you will. Had Abraham been able to be content with the fact that Sarah could not get pregnant and not gone ahead and had a child with another woman then we also might not have had the vastly varing beliefs in religion we have today. Furthermore, the Bible tells us that Both Abraham and Sarah were in excess of 80 years old when Isaac was born should cast doubt on the "Facts" of the Bible in the first place. We all know that it is pretty much impossible for a woman the bear a child much after her 60's but yet Sarah seems to have done so she was 90 according to Genesis 17:17. We are asked to have faith that all of this really happened, probably, because God made it happen but yet god doesn't spare completly innocent children from death at very young ages. Faith asks far more than science and it just isn't feasible to believe.

It is so useless to argue with the anti-evolutionist, flat-earth crowd, but so difficult to just ignore their silly positions, isn't it?

So I can't help but rising to their bait - so all you intelligent (uuhmm) design types to explain one very well established modern consequence of what I attribute to evolutionary processes. Please explain to me how antibiotic resistant bacteria develop, and you are not allowed to use any evolutionary mechanism.

Ready? Go!!........

It's almost painful to read these comments, for I have rarely seen so much mention of the invisible, bronze-age judeo-christian entity which still to this day nobody can prove exists.

Evolution is a theory, but it is a theory that has actually been substantiated based upon empirical data, observation, and analysis. It makes more sense than taking your beliefs from a 2000 year old book whose writers knew next to nothing about science. The truth of the Bible is ultimately just another theory, and a very bad one to boot. I would love for somebody to name a theory that substantiates intelligent design out there outside of the Bible using the scientific method as opposed to analogical rhetoric, not just one that disproves evolution.

Evolution is entertaining, especially in artistic renditions of theory masquerading as fact. An essential problem of evolution is that answers to two problems remain to be found. The first problem is how whether the theory can overcome the physics principle that matter moves from order to disorder; evolutionary theory posits the reverse, the only "scientific" dogma to do so, and yet makes the supposition without support. The second is problem is whether evolutionary theory has an anser to root causation of life itself, with a scientific answer as to how matter somehow not only becomes organic but is imbued with a life spark. Without answers to these questions, evolutionary theory cannot even proceed downstream to analysis of what changes may or may not take place with living things. I did not need my Bible to thump for those questions, though I securely understand that God made all things, His creation so vast as to exceed human understanding, all provided to us freely nd emphasizing His infinite greatness and glory.

All of this hyperbole over some people fishing. Wow!!

Evolution is proven fact weather people believe it or not. It doesn't mean that what Alex says can't be true. Evolution might just be the follow up to creation. Still, there are some theories in evolution that would shut that idea down.

I find the evolution vs creationism topic interesting.

Someone stated everyone has a right to opinion so long as they don't try to force it on others.

But there are two sides conflicting. Those that believe in a non-God universe tend to believe evolution and natural selection determine our outcome. If that's the case, than might makes right. I believe these theories are the leading causes of morality issues we see today. If they're right, others' beliefs matter little.

The other side of the conflict is a belief system of we who see a glory in a higher power. Those that believe in God are taught to share in that glory so that others will know of it. To these people, their opinions matter.

As to fact, it's impossible to know most things to be truth. But while I can't explain the existance of God, I believe.

We can't disprove everything but we try. To many, the argument for what they believe is that it's more believeable than other option(s). Instead of proving what we haven't been able to, we try to disproove.

There are impossibilities to the human mind that science can't explain but the existance of a supreme being (God) can.

Where did matter come from?
When did it come?
When did time begin?

Here's an answer to all those questions:

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Who's to say that God exists through time. We are experiencing time as our minds perceive. God has always been and always will be.

As to some fish that was found, all it proves is that we have not found nor do we know everything.

To the topic of evolution, I find it hard to swallow - that a creature can change states to a point it can no longer mate with any other creature, yet it happens to find another that went through the same change in order to procreate a new species.

I understand micro evolution. But a dog is still a dog.

Evolution is not a hoax. Are you freakin Kidding me. Evolution is when u start to change in shape or bone structure. Like the monkey's we came from them millions of years ago. And the dinasours where once small little creatures then they evolved into bigger creatures. Bug's even. So come on, whats the big deal? Use your head. Someone with a double digit i.q should know better

Matthew Miller,

I could not of said it any better or clearer for these non God conforming people. There is no fact to evolution and even Scientist are even changing their thoughts on evolution to creation.

Our belief is so strong, it blinds us sometimes.
Which one is the biggest lie? God, evolution or creationism? The answer depends what you think with; your head(facts) or your heart(feeling/belief/raised to follow).

Those long snout elephant fish are actually electric fish from a taxonomic order called mormyriformes. They are very intelligent animals that use weakly electric fields to navigate in their surroundings as well as communicate with one another. They have one of the largest brain to body mass ratio, up there with humans.

Whether or not you believe in evolution or divine creation, you can still be petty enough to nearly draw blood when someone disagrees with you.

Render the things that pertain to evolution to the evolutionists!
Render to God that which pertains to God!

(And PLEASE stop all this senseless bickering!!)

Wow. So many uneducated people, so little time. Did it ever occur to you bible thumpers that researching and picking up a book other than the Bible might help you understand how possible evolution is? And of course no one has actually viewed evolution when it was happening, because it happens over a long period of time, much longer than humans can live for.

Pure Darwinian evolution was based on massive amounts of "missing links" between these instars. Darwin himself claimed we would find a multitude of these in the 100 years since his theory or it would prove his theory wrong. I'm not saying a different theory might not be correct but by the man who created the theory of evolution, his theory is wrong.
There is a difference between micro-evolution (adaption) and macro-evolution (changing of DNA).

I think people are confusing Darwinism, a very specific theory of evolution with evolution in general. Darwinism cannot produce a new species, only varients on an existing species. Darwinism claims random mutations drive evolution. As such, the moment an example of a new species emerges, it has no other being to reproduce with and it goes extinct immediately (unless it reproduces asexually). In order for a sufficient number of examples of the new species to exist simultaneously for a viable population to emerge, randomness must be eliminated.

Right... evolution is a hoax... and a man lived inside a whale for 3 months... women were made from a man's rib... a boat was made to fit 2 of every living creature on earth... sure...

Posted by DBO on November 7,2009 | 09:19AM

it was 3 days not 3 months,smart guy

quote "People are so gullible. They won't believe something that has been given evidence and proof, but they'll believe some made up story they read in a book (100% of which cannot be proven and really never has).

Even if evolution were not a fact, at least someone is attempting to rationalize their thoughts and provide evidence to their theory, rather than jumping in the herd of zombie sheep who will believe anything their oh-so-holy book tells them to believe.

Posted by Rampage on November 7,2009 | 09:19AM"

In case you didn't know "...a book" or "...oh-so-holy book" is better know as Scripture,the Holy Bible, and/or the Word of God, etc does not have to be proven because it is the word of God and He is truth and light and life (you wouldn't be breathing if it weren't for God!). Also, The Bible was written when a man's word meant something; his word was a reflection of his character...whereas today a man's word (or woman's) isn't worth the air it's breathed from.

The only people that are gullible are those who believe in evolution. Speaking of the Bible not being proven, where on earth have you read or found that evolution could be proven? Evolution is a man-made theory. Now tell me, which would you rather believe: (1) the Holy Bible, God's Word which is the truth, or (2) some theory man came up with? I'll placae my confidence in God; never in human beings who are prone to err. God bless...

I Believe In God, Like I Believe In This Article, GOD Created The Earth Thousands Years Ago, So I Believe The GOD Created Everything Else That Is In This World. ( Everything Is Nature)

This Is The First Article That I Really Like Very Interesting.

I do NOT agree what so ever that evolution is a hoax. think about it, DNA changes over time, caused by mutations or some sort of thing like that. Not only animals evolve you know. even cars for example have evolved. one car started, then they built on from there. so i dont agree with the statement that evolution is a hoax.

I believe that an all knowing,perfect,all powerful creator could write his own book without the help of feeble mankind.
No man has the answers to all questions. You can spend you life looking for them, or spend your life just enjoying life.

Go Green hydroelectric plant

cool. i've never heard of a NEW species that is actually REAL! cool!!!!! :D

are there any pictures of the creatures?

God did not create man. Man created god. Darwin rocks.

Very interesting, especially about how the pockets of calm water within the current upstream of the waterfall. Never knew there was a such thing as an underwater waterfall. Maybe in the future, or even in a couple months, better equipment, go back to the Congo and find even more species.
Michal Fugate, thank you so much. I was going to say this is not a rant between religion and science, as is why religion should never be taken into a lab, but more of discovering life that may or may not have already existed for a long time, but just discovering it now. New species are what we need, since others are dieing out.

DH you crack me up you say evolution(fact) then gravity(fact) Heather Ibey said it best. Gravity is fact because its evident in many things. Jump off a high dive into a pool and you will feel the effects of gravity. Evolution is a theory and nothing more there is no tangible proof to support it. Same can be said for creationism. However I beiliev in God. I think God may have used evolution as a way to do it. But for people to think that something as delicate and perfect as our worlds eco-system could just magically and perfectly happen over a period of millions and billions of years old is laughable. Heres my thoughts.
Science is supposed to be objective at least thats part of the scientific method. You gather data and test that data till you come up to a logical conclusion. Why is it that in every science textbook they teach the evolution and big bang theorys but there is no mention of creationism. Thats not objective thats biased.

It's interesting that an article about some of the intricasies of the Congo River has to turn into a debate about religious beliefs, which argues that the findings are incorrect because of one's religion. Since Christianity is based upon the life and teachings of Jesus Christ,recorded in a bible of several hundred pages, and accepted as "the word" by its' followers, why does this religion require so many different faiths ? It has Baptists,Methodists, Presbyterians,Lutherans, Catholics, plus a dozen more. Most of these have two or more distinct divisions. I live in a city that has a nationally respected state university, suggesting there is some intelligence here. The street I live on has one Baptist Church next door, and within fifty yards of another Baptist church. Both are active, with several dozen members attending each.
Since all of these churches and faiths are "necessary" according to national sentiment, exactly which one is the authority on statements regarding evolution ? If they all are correct, I ask again: why doesn't Christianity have only one church? It's a puzzlement. The faith-based group insists they are correct, with no room for other opinions.

How do all you "Godly people" know that evolution wasn't part of Gods plan?

Who's to say what Gods plan is/was. Perhaps it was the evolution of all living things. I do believe the bible has a name for those who put words in Gods mouth to distort things to fit their thinking.....?

You're not God. You don't know everything just because you read a bible that was loosly translated by people with an agenda.

And gravity isn not easily explained, unless you're a simpleton who thinks electomagnetic force. Why do things with mass have gravity? Nobody truly knows. It is theorized that it has something to do with dark matter/energy, micro black holes or possibly even the string theory. Other than that, it is unknown where gravity actually comes from.

lets keep it simple. evolution is a "fact" in that everything evolves to a point. this is not to say in any way that humans evolved from monkeys or apes. where is the talking ape?

creationism is the easiest way to explain life on earth and all the components of the planet we live on. all scientific theories explaining how the human body is designed without a creator are difficult to believe. imo, we had to be designed. the human body, the sun, the moon and the gravitational pull, the way as we rotate and do not fall off the planet, etc. etc. gravity being a "fact" is a perfect argument against the big bang or any other "theory". too many perfect necessities for us to live on this planet for it not to be designed!

just my opinion.

If some of you obviously intelligent people would really think about it, Nothing and I mean Nothing in or out of this World could have just been thrown together by chance,Look at how man has advanced through the years and the only way you are going to get the many different species of animal and plant life that we have or that has been lost due to climatic changes or other disasters is by it being created by a far more intelligent being ( God ) then us and so many speices have just disappeared, some without a trace and some have just left us a fossil record and if you look at our immediate past we still can't figure out how man created the pyramids or other Wonders of the past and can you imagin someone from our far past getting a glimpse of Now, look at the Oceans and lakes how deep they are and these rivers that are mentioned above, what is down there that we have yet to find? and out in space who knows! so how can you say it is by chance!!! Think With An open Mind People!!

I think that it is stupid to even think that evolution is a completely bogus theory...I mean, especially if you're over here saying "God created everything". I am a pretty open-minded person, but we have wayyyyy more physical evidence of evolution (fossils and whatnot) taking place than God's actual existence. Period. I actually believe in God and try to implement the two rather than shunning one or the other.

Anyone ever consider God may have created evolution?

First, to the scientists on the expedition, congratulations and good luck. I hope you find more in your time to come in the river.
Second, this IS NOT a religious debate. Lets be sensible adults here, not ignorant-religious-zealots. If I wanted to bring my religion into this (Wicca) I could bash all of you easily. Instead, I hope that scientists on this expedition of theirs has continuing good luck, and I tell them to be very careful, and mindful as the river can be a very dangerous entity. Water is not a very forgiving element, and I say this as one who worked on the Mississippi River and the Gulf of Mexico for two years. So good luck, have fun, and definantley be very careful.

why does everything have to turn into a religious argument? This is a an article about evolution in species, not some invisible person that supposedly created the world. I for one believe in both religion and evolution. i think evolution is natural law and is healthy for the future of the world. if it wasn't for evolution, mutation, and natural selection we would not see any progress. We wouldn't be where we are now. Maybe even extinct. Evolution is only a theory, its not that scientist know exactly saying "Yes this did happen", it's just a theory. Theory is a system of ideas intended to explain something. Which, in the end, scientists keep finding facts to prove the theory. I think in the immediate future we will find a new species of animal that will just blow our minds.

Evolution exists because the Goddess from whose body we sprang gets bored with the same old same old.

Why do these exciting scientific journal articles always get plagued by creationism/evolution debates? THIS ARTICLE IS ABOUT FINDING NEW SPECIES. That should be exciting on both sides. This article explains little about evolution, other than just separating ecosystems and creating a bigger gene pool. The full point here is that there are still many parts of the world full of wonderful endemic species we should fight to save.
You all need to get off your butts and go discover the world, rather than reading about it and then trying to cause a debate.

There is a greater plan at work than mere mortals can unravel.

Fact is, if you look at the Hubble space photos, you can see God is still creating. It was man who determined the earth was made in 6 days. Evn if God had used the word Billions, man didn't have the concept of a number that high.

God is likely very ashamed at religious leaders speaking for Him/Her, as if they have daily cell phone communication. All major religious congregations need to slap themselves out of their delusion. Religion in this day and age is all about politics. Politics control money distribution.

Humans are naturally spiritual. You don't need a preacher, minister, Pope, Iyatollah or witch doctor to have a connection with our Creator. Bow your head and think about it.

I find the entire universe and space, our mountain and oceans, the flora and fauna a grand mystery.

I think there is room in the human mind to meld evolution and creationism. MMMMM??? But it very hard to look at all species of aniimal including man and not see some sort of intelligent design. Just take a look at the human body and how very sophisticated it is and how all systems work together to keep us alive. But we have evolved over time so that, for instance, the appendix is no longer a required part of our anatomy. And in some ways the spleen - many people out there have lost it due to various causes and still lead healthy lives. And I think another question is in order. I know scientifically why the heart beats but where did the original spark, if you will, come from? I'm just saying that we should all keep our minds open to a God who adapts or evolves all creatures over time based on their nneds.

Very interesting that all things come back to the beginning...GOD.

oh yeah, putting things in ALL CAPITAL LETTERS makes them true. now you have changed my mind.

It seems to me everyone is limiting God. God isn't limited or boxed in by creationist ideas. Nor is God limited by evolutionist ideas. Both concepts limit God. My God, the God of the Bible, is unimaginably bigger than the most radical evolutionis idea ever imagined. The creator God too has and is very likely still creating stuff we mere mortals, blind as we are, never see or are aware of. If God is no more than what evolutionist think he is or what the creationist think he is both are limiting God to what the human mind can imagine and comprehend. If that is all God is he isn't much. I suggest that we all embrace a God whose totality is incomprehensible but has revealed enough of himself for us to accept him to be who he says he is in the Bible.

"Although I do think evolution is true, a distinction needs to be made between macro-evolution and micro-evolution."

I thank you, Rick DeOrio, for a well put statment.

Alex you are to be commended for your open mind. That is how it works for.

I also agree that the arguments going on here are very sad. The article is simply about the discovery of something we had never seen before. Creationist or Evolutionist doesn't matter at all. The wonder that some humans have about the world around us is amazing. More people should seek MUCH more education before slathering the internet with their personal thoughts.

I was rasied Catholic and lived that way until I was nearly 30. I have read the bible several more times then most of you would care to read anything. After college and graduate school, my mind changed completely on the afore mentioned argument. I am now a Professer and teach my students how to think not what to think about biological processes that none of us fully understand.

To all of you how unintelligently throw you opinion out there in a sad attempt to sway other peoples thinking, I feel VERY bad for you. The fact that you are so offended by another view point simply points out how unsure you really are.

Its amazing wherever you find a discussion on science one can find people babbling on, consumed by fear, about things they know nothing about. To all you petrified creationists....science and evolution are NOT any attempte to separate you from your god. Some of the greatest minds of the 20th century saw no conflict between science and a belief and understanding in a creator of everything we see. Einstein and Ghandi to name just two. I know this post will not help to assuage you hostility or sooth your all too evident fear. But, maybe this will relax you some;...."Evolution is a direct example and proof of the hand of "God" influencing the world we live in everyday". I know this is not the personal, intimate and direct influence you need as a human who is perplexed by the world in which we live. But, it is certainly more true to reality than you quoting from a book from which you cant even read if presented to you in the original language it was written. I will wager you believe in your religion and hold to it for dear life, out of a fear that you cant even explain. Can you truely say you are secure in your faith? If you were you would not feel threatened by the TRUTH.
In short; face your fears, you are not alone in them. It is OK not to know. Do you honstly believe in your heart of hearts everything your priest has told you? Can you honestly tell me you know all that hes been and will be? I am not saying discard your religion. But if you realy want to be secure in it...let it "evolve", grow and flower with the "Truth".

The simple truth is that neither evolution or creation has ever been conclusively proved. The scientists who are doing the research are becoming more and more convinced that there was an intelligent hand involved in creation and that the scientific facts about DNA make evolution less and less likely. The majority of the scientists who hold this view based on the research are not Christian. As for me I would just like someone to show me the skeletons of the giraffe and all of the increasingly longer necked creatures that trace the evolution of the giraffe and I will gladly take evolution more seriously.

"Alas, there will never be peace on earth as long as there is more than one religion."

Michael, I think the problem is that there IS religion in the first place, or rather, the idea of god that ultimately leads to a religion. Instead, we should admit that our current understanding of the major mechanisms that led to the existence of our world is limited, that it needs more, time, thought, and research to get to the truth of the matter. It's not going to happen in our lifetime but let's keep plugging away at uncovering nature's secrets. We'll eventually get a clear enough picture of things, even if we're never able to dot ever i and cross every t. Attributing everything we don't understand to some mysterious god, supreme being, creator or what have you is just irresponsible.

Just love God and love everybody. Plain and simple.

God Bless!

Evolution and the Bible go hand in hand. Why? Because the only human to ever walk the earth was killed 2000K yrs ago. We do not know how long God's day is, nor will we ever until we have died or come Judgement Day. There is to much physical proof to show that evolution is going on as we speak. I believe a Supreme Beening created everything, I just don't know the time used to do so. While the Bible talks about sever (7) days, we do not know how long those days were, nor the nights between them. May God Watch Over, Bless and Protect all mankind, as the debate goes on. Thomas Harwell

Why do people insist on comparing apples to eggs. Keep religion and science separate.

If natural selection is the process wherein the physical characteristics of an individual species change in response to its needs to survive in a changing environment, is this not the same process wherein a species gradually 'evolves' into another? When tree dwelling primates began to spend more time on the ground due to a change in their environment from forest to grassland, 'natural selection' favored those who were able to spend more time standing straight, allowing them to see further, use their hands more, etc., weeding out the others. In time, the primates that could stay upright continuously, use their hands for tools and hunting weopons, etc, took their place. these were the first humans, or proto humans. If natural selection leads to the evolution of a new species, then it is part of the process of evolution, and does not stand apart.
Another example would be the appearance of new, hard to destroy bacteria and viruses. They did not come out of nowhere, but are the descendants of the more hardier members of previously existing viruses and bacteria that managed to survive the chemical warfare we humans applied against them. Walleye, pikes, etc exist in each of the Great Lakes because these lakes were originally one vast inland sea.
Of course, if you subscribe to the notion that everything was made by an all powerful father-god in six days, 6,000 years ago, and stubbornly refuse to even peruse some small part of the vast trove of evidence that refutes this, and find some comfort in this belief, that is your priveledge. But until you can supply some form of factual evidence to support this belief, then that is all it is, a belief, based on religous propadanda cobbled together from varous middle eastern cultures ages ago,the sole purpose of which was to keep people in line and afraid to think.

i don't believe in evolution theory..........this theory is for those who does not believe that they have a creator up above.

**********"Why is a walleye a walleye and a northern pike a northern pike in everyone of them" asks Martin Johnson of fish in Canadian lakes. That's a great question. If you were to do genetic testing on samples of walleye from numerous different lakes, you would find subtle genetic differences. That's proven time and again in different regions of the United States. Example, green sunfish in Ohio are a distinct genetic population from the green sunfish in Texas. They look virtually the same, but if you look at them side by side you see small differences in coloration and markings. Back to the walleye, given another million years or so you might actually get another species of walleye in the diferent lakes. Give it another few million years and you could get a whole new genus that decended from the walleye. There is another factor at play. While it may seem that all those lakes are completely isolated, there's still some genetic mixing that occurs. While living in Florida, several times I've watched eagles snag fish in one pond, fly a hundred yards, and then accidentally drop the fish into a different pond. Acts like this are working to keep the genetic population similar throughout a large area...like Canada. If a 1000 foot high mountain range were to spring up right down the middle of Canada, I bet after 20 or 30 thousand years, the walleye on either side would look fairly different, at least enough to be considered a different species.*******

REPLY***********************It would still be a fish and not a monkey.............Each after its own kind.

god and evolution and the bible are all things that us as collective human life forms have created. the truth is in my opinion that we will never truly know who or what created all living things in the cosmos. until we can follow a dead persons "soul" or whatever your beleifs call it, to the afterlife and see where they go we will never know what our creator is! things will be created and destroyed that is how life in general works. all we are is energy all connected into one big living universe. we dont even know if theres something outside of the universe! the universe that out solar system is in could just be a speck inside something even larger!!! until we can break space and time we will never know these answers.

i just think that it is amazing that the same God that made the enormous congo river also made me. His creation is incomprehensible...

If you say the "creator" formed these organisms and this creator is "God" then who created God? You have no factual information to say that a "God" created anything. Evolution has actual facts, which can be observed. They are called transitional forms. People should research (possibly go back to school) and actually learn something before they get on here and write something ignorant!

I don't think people know what a theory is. A theory is not just an assumption someone made or a cool idea someone came up with. It is an idea that has been studies extensively and is basically true but because there isn't every single part of the evidence available that would be necessary to prove it a law it is a theory. That does not mean that a theory is any less true than a law. In the case of evolution it is a theory because we cannot possible get all the evidence about how all the species evolved. Evolution happened over millions of years and is still happening. Things have eroded and many completely disappeared. However, all the evidence that we do have only points to the fact that evolution does exist and that we all did evolve from one basic organism. Do all you creationist people actually believe that god sat down one day and created all the thousands of species of frogs, because he said well I need some birds, monkeys, people, five hundred different frogs. No wait I need more frogs. This discussion is ridiculous.

Hey if evolution has any truth. God created it. Simple as that.. Science is argued against God and God against science, but without God there is no science or evolution. Have a good day! God Bless!

darwin, later in his life, did not even believe his own theory! there is no proof of evolution. it is not scientific to make the evidence fit the theory. we have it all backwards.

Answer me this: How would you know - or anyone- that this planet, animals, etc., existed millions of years ago when we have NOTHING to prove there was existence. No one I know has lived longer than a century. How things can become so skewed....

Many of you are using the word "FACT" as if it meant the same as the word "TRUE". This is not the case. A Fact is a statement that can be proved either true or false. As opposed to an opinion, which is a belief. Also, someone mentioned that if "A" evolved into "B" then "A" would no longer exist. This is not necessarily true. Wolves evolved into dogs, but there is room in nature for both to co-exist. Anyway, people believe what they believe and no amount of proof from the other side can sway them from what they "know" to be true. Have a nice day.

I believe in God the creator is capable of everything even evolution and because of cells Man are able to create new things so why wouldn't God?

Did this article all of a sudden become a argument on evolution/creation?

listen all you want to be scientist out there. there is only one room for 1 and it is me. i think that if there is some new specices then you should just leave it alone. human kind has already destroded most of the world with science and if there is new fish in the water then you should just let them be. so maybe one day or years from now we might see a micrale . so stop trying to discover new fish in the water!!!

to the guy who thinks, presumaby, that the Bible was written in 356AD ... wow, how narrow-minded and ignorant can you get ?

educate yourself, you seem to know very little about a lot of things .... God and evolution are not mutually exclusive, even the Genesis narrative states six days or ages, and the order follows a known pattern - planets - land water - plants - sea life - mammals - mankindlast .. very interesting wouldn't you say ?

While I believe in evolution as an educated medical doctor, I will concede that some of the most brilliant minds in science do not believe in evolution. It has always been an interesting debate when it does not fall to insults and the like.

In short, evolution has evidence to support it. Its not proven by any means. It is a theory by definition. When we think of evolution it is over a thousands if not millions of years. Our evidence and understanding is only a glimpse of time. Realistically, even the most educated historian is looking at single grains of sand in an hourglass when we approach the idea of evolution.

In terms of science, creationism or intelligent design does not really apply. It CANNOT be proven. In medical terms, the idea is like a "diagnosis of exclusion." While many of us believe in a higher power or at least would like to believe, there is no way to prove that God or some power exists.

If it cannot be proven to exist, it cannot be proven to not exist. With out current understanding and technology, we are limited to what we as a society can grasp as common knowledge. Not more than 100 years ago did we not really understand bacteria, viruses, and fungi that were causes of illness and disease. We thought God or some evil spirits were punishing or attacking us. Now we know that to be false. (though some can argue that its God's will that people get sick...)

As stated above, evolution and creationism can go hand in hand. Simply put... God or a higher power created the world and set a plan in place. Evolution is just part of that plan.

You can't argue with people who believe there's a god. Any evidence that supports your point of view is met with the statement, "That's the way god planned it." It baffles my mind that people refuse to accept tangible evidence for something like evolution but believe there is an all-powerful invisible being that created everything. It's especially annoying when people cite the Bible as their proof - a book that was written centuries ago by people whose scientific knowledge was very limited. If the Bible is the word of god, why did it end with the New Testament? Did God stop talking? Open your eyes, people.

Are they not literally discovering new species of fish, insects, reptiles, plants...i.e. any life forms, like every day now? They don't need to announce each one.

I live in northern Wisconsin and I have seen,in my over 40yrs.of living here, the change of our perennial creatures.I'm assuming it's because of the other things are not supposta be here,unnatural to our habitat.Heck, we caught an alligater on the Fox River last week!! If the things that are SUPPOSTA be can't adapt, or evolve, they WILL dissappear!! Anybody see a walking stick lately? 20 yrs. ago they used to be everywere!

Ya'll stay tuned. This evolution thing vs. a creator thing will get all cleard up when our Savior and King returns. Clearly nothing short of His personal explination will sort things out. Till then? Relax and enjoy the conversation.
-Brian

What I think is interesting about people saying, well, GOD MUST HAVE MADE IT! is that they don't stop and think, well, if someone -had- to make the earth, then how did God get where he is? Didn't that mean that if someone had to make the earth and everything around it, then wouldn't that mean someone had to make god? And then who made that someone? Then you get stuck on a slippery slope when you feel that someone HAD to make something.

I believe in evolution, at least on a micro level. The fact that we don't look like "cavemen" anymore is evidence of that. And I don't believe that we "evolved" from primates. I'm pretty sure that it's more like we share a common ancestor with primates, and that we evolved from them!

Ok, ...here's how I see things. The first thing is, that all this is impossible. Why should there be this big ball before it 'big banged into genesis', that contains every atom, quark, strangeness, and charm in the universe at all. Logically there should be nothing. There has to be a reason, and a physical action for there to be something. Where did God come from. Time is nothing, and it has no beginning. Without something, it does not exist. Nothing should logically remain nothing. The first rule of science is that something can't come from nothing. So then when we have something that is logically impossibile, it means that anything is possible, ...including God.
But you will never prove God exists, ...because he doesn't want you to. With all his infinite capability, that should be obvious. So stop reading ancient books, going to shrines, meditating, looking for the answers in all the wrong places, and believing blindly. God doesn't want you to be blind, ...he doesn't want you begging on your knees. He wants you to get up and stand on your feet, and at his side to fight for the poor, the forgotten, and half the world's children that will go to bed hungry tonight. That's what he's waiting for, ...with or without God on your side, ...for you to stand and be counted.

'When you come to make Love
Your only goal
Words cannot describe the feeling'

Man was made in Gods image according to the bible. God's book says what man can think of man can do. Man can create whole new species right now. Evoloution is a fact because of natural selection or mutation. Humans have not been in existense very long. We can have blood transfusions between chimps. You can have 2 genetically similar species breed and produce offspring that can breed. Ofcourse, a donkey and a horse produce a mule which is sterile. I don't think they will find a link where we broke off from the chimp family. I think there might have been some mingling concerning humans/chimps. Who knows for sure? Personaly, I think a human was an experiment gone terribly wrong. lol
I have very close cousins and some are very short, under 5 ft by a few inches and some are almost 7 feet tall, all the same species. Now, in 5 thousand years are they going to say we were different species? A few years ago they said that earth was the only place that had water, now they say the moon has water. We don't know what's on our own planet, but scientist are saying that some planets are just gas balls. It's mind boggeling to me how people in general come to a conclusion when no one has all the facts. No one! Not about the bible, not about creation, not about evolution...nada. Yes, we should be able to measure the depth of a river if scientists can say another planet is a gas ball. I think we should already have our planet exactly mapped out concerning depths, ect. We don't even know for sure what the middle of the earth is, it's speculation.

Back to the river and new species. We are in an ever changing world, what's the deepest right now may not be in 100 years. Who knows and what difference does it make? Is that river really proving genetically different species because of how it flows? It's just speculation, but it's probably possible in rare cases. What will this article be worth in 10 years to the world?

Hmmm - That chicken/egg thing, did we ever get that nailed down yet?

Think about it this way- Do you believe "God" created us to stay one way since the times of Adam and Eve? When someone who is religious says there cannot be evolution - they are saying "God" created us to stay one simple way for thousands of years, which is a bit ignorant - we have changed as people, we have evolved since those times. is it impossible to believe that "God" could have had the plan that evolution was part of the big picture.

It's like saying that such a divine being put us here to be simple, to not learn, to not grow, to not flourish and become better...to not evolve. Are you saying that we have not evolved in any way? In essence if you say evolution is a hoax you're either blind or you didn't go to school and have been under a rock for your whole life (or maybe you just don't know the definition of evolution)...

It is a great and interesting story. I have been part of studies in the Amazon basin as well as the Galapagos islands so this stuff always interests me.

Having said that, I will never understand why man continues to believe that he(being of a material, mortal world), can define, interpret and outline his spiritual world. By definition it has no outline, no form. And it certainly wont be outlined by rewritten, reinterpreted ancient texts which use obvious old human concepts of "supreme being" and "worship". I grew up a christian and believe it served a great value to me, it made me realize that there was more to me that my mortal existence. But I knew after serving two terms in the peace corps, there was no possible, logical means by which man could define or verify his spirituality. During all these travels and work I came to understand that Christianity based religion makes up about 20% of the worlds theology. So, in order for me to have "faith" in this unproven theory of existence, I had to believe that 80% of the worlds humans were doomed by prophecy. That is when I knew, you can only define being spiritual within the context of your innate individual basis. Not by mass proxy.

For any of you people who believe in EVOLUTION I would suggest that you look into the bacterial flagellum. Irreducibly complex.....sorry, if you believe that "just happens" then you are incredibly stubborn or just plain ignorant.

Where did GOD come from? Did he just appear? Or did someone make him? If so who made that God???????? Lets see someone make any sense of this rubble. Not really looking for beliefs here, JUST THE FACTS PLEASE

It's so sad that some, but luckily not all, "scientifically" minded people don't know the difference between evolution and adaptation and/or selection. The features of the creatures noted in the lower Congo display microscopically tiny differentiations between the same species NOT separation between two evolving species and, therefore, don't even begin to support evolution. Science and Spirit remain in essential harmony because Genesis is not a scientific tract nor is Darwin the prophet of some secular humanist religion.
Creationists will back off from their righteous diatribes only when evolutionists restrict THEMSELVES to the facts and not emotion-charged rants so toxically filled with supercilious arrogance.

Both sides of this debate carry with them theoretical assumptions. What is undeniable is the awesome number and diversity of species on this planet. I would suspect that "GOD" is a scientist and a lover of the beauty of order and has one strange sense of humor and is laughing at our attempts to answer the riddles of our universe. What gets to me, is why so many educated, scientifically minded folks, will entertain all theories with the exception of intelligent design and at the same time certain fundamentalist religious groups that accept only a literal translation of The Old Testament, believe they are representing the majority of thought from either camp. I'm sick of extremism. There is a majority of people who find great spirituality in science and many believers in God, who are not exclusive of new ideas.

Hmm! I am not sure what creationists think a transition or intermediate species is supposed to look like, but there is plenty of evolutionary evidence available. The most obvious transition species in "higher" animals from reptiles to birds would be Archaeopteryx, but I am sure that creationists would insist on another "transition" species between reptiles and Archaeopteryx or Archaeopteryx and birds.

Maybe, creationists should try to explain to us folk in the rational world what they would expect a transition species to be.

'evolution is a hoax'?
Yeppers! The Good Lord just left all those fossils for us to find simply to lead us astray.

Hey, how dumb does one have to be to imagine that the divine works like a conjurer? 'TaahDaaaah' - here's a giraffe!
As a Christian AND a Scientist i see the hand of God in all of his creation, but He is NOT a cheap magician, - expecting such simply cheapens and lessens HIS universe, in which we are blessed to live.

PS - as to the deepest river in the world?.....try the ones under antartica.

if their is no evolution is their anybody can explain about dinosaurs? is their any dinosaur in the ark of noah? is their any evidence that dinosaur exists?

Saying that evolution is a fact just the same as gravity is a rediculous statement. First of all evolution cannot be scientifically duplicated and studied. All we have are fossels that look similar and animals with similar characteristics but no way of duplicating the outcome- it's been tried, it failed. Second, where are all the half and half creatures? Surely we haven't reached the pinacle of evalution- considering the idea behind evolution as being a completely random occurance, there would be no technical "peak" of evolution. Thirdly, claiming that someone fears evolution instead of simply disagreeing with the idea that rests entirely on its interpretation is just sad and misleading. People who use that argument instead of accepting that some simply don't agree with your hypothesis-because lets face it that's all it is- is disheartening to your cause.

To all those who believe gravity to be fact, it has in fact been proven wrong. As a physicist, I can assuredly tell you that space time has taken the place of gravity as the more accepted theory because of some flaws in the theory of gravity, such as its lack of ability to explain the bending of light. - Dr. Eugene F. Chaffin

To all those who believe evolution to be fact, I can also assure you most certainly that no scientist asserts it to be fact at all. It is the BELIEF that organisms change genetically over time to become more fit organisms (macroevolution); and because it is a BELIEF it cannot be considered even a theory--especially not a fact or law. The "evidence" for evolution consists of genetic mutation (microevolution), which, it just so happens, provides organisms with LESS genetic information over time, and therefore does not provide any proof that organisms can gain genetic information to result in better ability to cope with their environment. - Dr. Lane Lester

well rampage you are incorrect alot of stuff have beenproven from the bible.look at the sphinx in egypt for example a team of scientists studied it and found that at one point it had been underwater and anohr fact some important historical finds were found by people who were going to places lsited in the bible. and the fact is that the bible was written thousands of years ago and evolution theory is only recent. think about it who is to say evolution is true?well no one because all these supposed fossils were proven to ahve bones from several species mixed together. and abotu the changes "god said go forth and populate the earth and flourish" well by changing slightly they adapt to be able to flourish and that is exactly what is shown going on here.
so think about and show me proof of evolution go out and find a species that has supposedly "evolved and show it to me then i might be inclined to believe if i can think of no other explanation

"The world was created to glorify the creator"

Where is the humility in that?
I always feel like the blind followers represent God as some bully who wants to take my lunch money and have me kiss his feet.

Why can't there be room for shared belief? Perhaps God has challenged humankind to figure things out. Faith is admirable, Blind Faith is stubborn ignorance.

Science advances at the extremes. The study of this river at this depth, and the study of how the river affected the development of species therein, while interesting in its own right, could yield some insights into your average river with your average species because the effects of natural forces in this extreme case can be extrapolated to other, less extreme instances and hypotheses tested to see how well we have constructed the theory.

By the way, the analogy between gravity and evolution is very astute. Scientists do not know how to "prove" gravity except empirically-- they do not know how it arises out of the forces of the unified field theory; they can't say why it exists. There is no equation for gravity, the subatomic force, because we cannot see what is happening at that scale well enough to even know how to vouch the question. We see only the effects of gravity, and it does not require belief to continue to work. Same thing with evolution-- we see only the effects, but this time because the scale is so large that most people can't think in those terms well enough to ask any intelligent questions about it. (example: So let me get this straight. If Mr. A is prevented from crossing his neighbor's fence to breed with Mrs. B, then Mr. A will go through some sort of a genetic change? Just wondering.) This question shows not even an inkling of a clue about what genetic change is, it completely fails to ask if the progeny would be affected, and shows a lack of even attempting to understand the actual process. It is a sad comment on education in America.

Evolution does exist. It is created daily by GOD. Everything He touches, everything He creates, everything He changes is for a reason. Are the fish adapting to the water on the other side of the river in an effort to survive? Are His people creating more sophisticated structures then they were 100 years ago to safely house His children? He waves his hand and changes the seasons.
We as humans are so foolish and so arrogant at times when trying to "discover" and "label" new things in an effort to accomplish our personal goals. Although I am sure there are those that are pure of heart and follow their path with good intention the way that God has intended, but in the end, it's all his. His creation, his change, his intent.
This world is not ours to fully understand in this lifetime.

Posted by Gigi on November 7,2009 | 09:39AM

I will agree with evolution in this sense. Any changes have been made by God.

T.J.
1. When God mentioned creating the animals of the earth did he mention every animal that he created? There is dinosaurs in the bible a Behemoth which were walking among men about 4,000 - 5,000 years ago and given good detail in Job 40:15-19 Other than that plenty of discoveries in caves and such that have markings that involve man and dinsaurs

2. Similarity in genetics is simple because we were created by the same God

3. Not all science or carbon dating can be historically accurate. I would rather trust what God says than some man, because man was created with limited ability and God is limitless just take a look around you. Let every man be a liar and God be True. Besides that the bible is a history book in its own. How are the rest of the worlds historic events documented? In books! yet people believe those are true. Even if the bible is written by man which it is, does that not mean that it was not divinely inspired. Can not God do what he desires with his creation?

God is seen all around us yet we dont get it. God is wonderful and he did create us in his image.. Which is awesome to know i have a sense of humor because God does!We worship men instead of God now days. The athelete but not the God given ability.. The chef but not the taste buds.. the sex but not the one who created the pleasure in it.. and just the simple things like the eyeballs that u are reading this with, your digestive system, re-creation, ability to smell, physical touch, joy, love, sorrow, just having a personality. Im not sayin things havent evolved at all, but individuality in personalities is distinct enough for my own comforts in creation. God Bless!

Genetics studies the base unit of evolution, which is NOT the organism, but the gene, more specifically the gene pool of all organisms in a species. As a result, all genetics should actually be expressed as a ratio of possibilities. Most people cannot handle basic statistics, much less of this magnitude. The thought of a statistical array of possible outcomes stretched over milions of years is somehow less tangible to people than "God did it, and I'm not going to venture as to how-- I just know it wasn't evolution."

Fundamentalism of this stripe is a real danger -- people that just want to do it "God's way" are trying to drag this nation into a theocracy like so many Muslim nations have the misfortune of being. I personally thank God almost daily that we are not a Christian nation, and I mean that most sincerely. The effects that fundamentalists have had on our country are absolutely debilitating. Their attempt to hamstring the teaching of evolution, among other things, has crippled the ability of the textbook industry to accurately track true advancements in science and has set science education in this country back at least 30 years. It is no surprise that so many more people in this country accept the fact of instead of faith in an unprovable God and that these same people try to foist off the most successful scientific paradigm in history as a shaky belief unsupported by evidence.

I guess it is easier just to define God as one will, and never try to look at the astounding world he created, ask questions, and learn about it. Deus ex machina lives on in modern America!!!

Nice article.

Evolution might be tool that God uses to fine tune somethings. God is no deity that just stays there...floating. I think he's always at work with something. If it's not the human spirit, it's working on creation.

I don't know why people tend to argue. Be nice. Show God's love peeps.

It is amazing to see the discussion on Evolution vs Creationism in the 21st century. Undoubtedly evolution, like gravity (General Relativity to be precise) and quantum mechanics is a theory. But it is a theory well supported by evidence in both the fossil record and DNA analysis. There is no longer any doubt that all living things are related and evolved from the same basic building blocks of life. We now have the genetic codes of several species of animals, insects and plants analyzed. Scientists have taken the next step to make modifications to the current genetic makeup to create new speices of plants (the Genetically Modified Organisms or GMO) with characteristics that are "preferred" by "them". If there are any Creators its these scientists and franky I shudder to think of unintended consequences that may flow from these actions at a later date. Nature does the same thing -- and sometimes the consequences are brutal in the extreme. For humans the plaque was one way Nature stress tested humans. The Survivors were stronger. Floods, droughts, forest fires, cold temperatures are other winnowing mechanisms of Nature. Volcanic action and of course the meteorite crash are the most extreme examples of Nature's wrath. Through terrible destruction did Nature make its most lovely creations. Maybe Man the Creator may similarly wreck havoc and then Nature may once again rebound with even more wonderful spieces. Who knows? Maybe God?

I agree alex.
I think that it's totally possible that "God" created things so that they could continually adapt to everchanging environments. The theory of evolution and religion could very possibly be the same story told differently. Not trying to push beliefs or hurt feelings, just an honest opinion

Whether you believe or not is irrelevant boys and girls. A true scientist will allow for the possibility of anything and will not close his or her mind. The same can be said of a true philosopher. Once you close your mind you have limited yourself. And once you do that young grasshoppa you are no longer a philosopher. I bet you little young scientists didn't know you where really philosophers but you are. Just for your edification science was called Natural Philosophy before it was called Science. And the greatest minds in the world. The ones that you hold in such high regard where and are the most open minds that have ever existed. That is why they where able to discover what they discovered. So boys and girls don't argue but question and instead of thinking you are right because you read it in a book or you learned it in school or it is considered a fact supported by a theory. I will give you a few facts and theories of the past that are now laughable but where very seriously believed in their time.

Continued Below -->

1) The World is Flat and the Earth is the Center of the Universe.

2) If you travel faster than the speed of sound you will disintegrate. The sound barrier cannot be broken.

3) Human beings are the only intelligent beings in the universe and intelligent life only exists on Earth.

4) The only Star that has planets is the Sun.

5) Earthlike planets cannot exist. Our planet is just a fluke.

Look up any of these things and you will see that they are no longer the "Scientific View". Also below are a few mind blowing things which are now openly agreed upon by "Scientists".

1) Matter is merely a thought. In fact it goes in and out of existence all the time.

2) An atom does not exist until you look at it (measure it). Only possibilities of the atom exist.

3) Human thought is the source of all matter.

4) The same object can exist in two places at the same time.

Continued Below -->

Before all you erudite "know it alls" start laughing, Call your friendly neighborhood Physicist or Comoslogist (by the way a Cosmologist is a Physicist that studies the Cosmos just in case you didn't know.) and verify these facts.

Smile and have a great day! Always keep an open mind boys and girls because otherwise your greatest fear may become reality. You may look like a complete fool one day!

The End

To say that evolution is false is well, false. To say that creationism is false is also false. I think if one truly believes in the bible, one should think, for a moment, outside the box and look at the bible not as a book of specific occurrences or events, but as a guide for living a better life. Science has already proven most of the events depicted in the bible as events that actually took place (ie: the Star of Bethlehem occurred during a supernova, etc). One must consider the knowledge of the communities of people at the time of these occurrences and understand why they are described as "acts of God". In closing, I'm sure many will disagree with me, that's ok, but there are some who will agree and perhaps look at things just a little different....

God created all,evolution took care of the rest ...........

I liked the article and it is interesting how water can be a barrier for fish in many ways (currents, oxygen content, temperature and such), but I do wish it had contained some photos of the new species being discovered, even if only dead specimens have been seen.

As for the evolution arguments, it is vastly misunderstood by many of the posts here. There is ample proof that micro-evolution occurs (small changes to existing genetic information in animals, altering size, color, tooth shape and such) and it accounts for a great deal of diversity in animals on our planet.

What knowledgeable creationists are against is the idea that macro-evolution occurs (huge changes, like eyes evolving in creatures that never had eyes), which is basically the creation of new information which should be impossible for any natural process to accomplish. They are also against the idea that extremely complex systems could evolve over time when if even one feature of such a system doesn't exist or is in the wrong place it renders the entire system unable to operate.

I was reading through these comments and found one that was just very funny. Everyong here is argueing for or against evolution and someone said how can evolution be proven by things that happened millions of years ago when no one was there to see it. The post went on to say that "God created everything and that is fact." The question I pose is that how can you say God created everything when no one was there to see it?

Just to clarify something a few of you have mentioned, humans being about a foot taller now than a few centuries ago is probably not evolution but stems from improved nutrition and health care. People eat much more protein now than then did a few hundred years ago, among myriad other factors. Think about it. How would being taller have started increasing fitness(the likelyhood of producing offspring that reproduce) just a few hundred years ago?? We weren't struggling to chase down food, reach tall fruits, or run from/fight off danger on a daily basis. Height was no real advantage anymore at that point, so there would be no evolutionary pressure to have more of it.

P.S. Please stop bashing all creationists because some of us are ignorant and uneducated. There are plenty of ignorant and uneducated atheists and evolutionists out there too. Any time you devolve(ironic word choice, huh?) into gross generalizations you look to be fairly ignorant yourself. Also, just because there are some unbelievable events described in the Bible doesn't mean anyone who believes any part of the Bible is an idiot. Many Christians and Jewish people think significant portions of the Bible are allegorical or anecdotal. They believe many stories from the Bible are meant to teach, not as history. This doesn't mean they are moronic for believing in Something that cannot be proven or disproven. Please stop treating them as such. Thank you.

So. I see this post is all a cross between those who believe in pure science to answer questions (that can or cannot be proven wrong later in time) and those who try and answer things with a book (which may or may not have been written by a higher power).

Don't be a hater because i refuse to help either side in an online board.

Thank God for Dr. Araujo! With love!

Evolution is a an undeniable fact, supported by many fields of research, molecular biology, genetics, geology, paleontology to name a few. Anyone who takes the trouble to look at the evidence with an open mind can't help but be convinced of it. Unless you don't want to change your mind because your judgement is clouded by your belief in some ridiculous religious fairy tale. In the end it doesn't matter, the physical world is what it is, independently of what ignorant people choose to believe based on unreliable sources and feelings.

I am going to evolve out of this ridiculous, never ending who's on first, what's on second conversation.

After surrendering to the Army and ending up on a reservation Chief Joseph of the Nez Perze Tribe was asked if he was going to start going to church.

His simple reply:

"Why would I want to go to church to learn how to fight about God?"

It should be a personal relationship with God. Encourage that relationship for others, don't set the terms.

Matthew Miller - So you believe everything in the Bible? So you must believe that it is ok to sell your daughter in to slavery (Exodus 21:7), that an rebellious child should be stoned to death (Deuteronomy 21:18-21), that any man who wears long hair brings shame on to himself(Corinthians 11:14-15)? That a old man captured millions of species and placed them two-by-two on a boat? If you can believe that but not believe evolution that you can go and see the progression of in a museum that you seem to have throw human logic out the window! See the problem with your religion is that if one piece of the story doesn't work then there is reasonable doubt in faith. But the science of evolution does not work like that just because one piece of the puzzle doesn't fit does not mean we throw the rest out! At least science has evidence of evolution, The Bible does not present ANY hard evidence to support it's claims.

My mom explained it best God created everything. When Adam and Eve were in the Garden what was going on outside the garden..... evoultion. No one ever said how long Adam and Eve were in the Garden of Eden. God gave us our minds and free will to think on our own.

Evolution is a very complicated multi-sided phenomena, we will never see the whole scope of things because we can't sit back for 20 million years and watch it happen, as far as the fish changing color to the rock scenario, think about it. Whenever a fish reproduces some of the offspring are going to be slightly different colors, so say the fish started out with a light coloring. The offspring who are a lighter color might not be able to hide from predators as easily, leaving the darker colored ones to reproduce with this same pattern for say a million years. Now the fish isn't a light colored fish anymore, because only the darkest survived because of their camouflage. After millions of years this fish might look different with the addition of genetic mutations and other forms of evolving turning into an entire new species. Someone obviously didn't create this world a couple thousand years ago...please be reasonable.

I would just like to "remind" people not to say "evolution" the correct term is "theory of evolution". It is a unproven theory, just as the theory that the world is flat was unproven.

If one were to genuinely ignore The Religious-Creationist, they cease to exist.

The article on a very Great River was wonderful. so to were a couple of the comments.

Theories live on.

MRB

I do not understand why people think that Evolution being "real" would "disprove religion".

Even the most religious people (usually) realize that not everything in the Bible is meant to be taken literally. Much of it is symbolic or about communicating a message or lesson.

Also I seen many people saying "evolution did not create these animals god did"... what is stopping God from creating animals and then causing them to evolve?

People should not look at things so black and white and think a bit. Religion is not dangerous, evolution is not dangerous, but looking at things as -only- black and white, and -only- literal... that is a dangerous thing in the hands of anyone.

I enjoy reading about the discovery of new species. It tells me we don't know everything and we never will. Darwin simply observed nature and postulated a theory about its beginnings. He also stated that without the discovery of transitional forms in the fossil record then the theory falls on it face. We're still looking for that transitional form. Physical differences within a species are undeniable, but in my opinion, a hummingbird was never a dinosaur or a pool of primordial ooze. I saw a recent program about a skull believed to be 6 million years old. It was crushed so the scientists reconstructed it using computer models and based on the reconstruction of what amounts to a handful of fossilized fragments, they theorized that this creature walked upright, therefore it must be related to man. Discussion is good, but we should accept the idea that the inconsistencies in the earth's layers and the amount of time between us and extinct species creates a casm that may never be bridged.

"What if god created species and gave them the ability to evolve?"

Dan, if this could be the consensus of world religions, it would be a tremendous step forward. I like it. It's been asked before, but not by enough people of faith.

I am not a believer, however. My question goes a little farther:

"What if a species created a god and gave him the ability to evolve?"

I love the questions. I hate the dogma (reverse is amgod);-)

NOt all Christians believe in the Bible thumping religiosity of a non-evolution creation belief...remember there were also many Christians of the dark ages who refused to believe that the world was anything but flat...but many Christians were involved in international exploration in that time period just the same. Just because one is Christian (and I am), do not group me in with all the other Bible thumping, Christians looking for a way to argue their every righteous point....some Christians believe that wallowing in the mud with a pig...makes one clean and sanctified somehow? I Could never figure out how that so called belief works to any Christian advantage?

I believe all atomic structures are conscious and that the universe compressed it's original structure (space) into atoms by implosion or concentration: intelligent concentration. Har, said the pirate I know I am right!

I love to fish for smallmouth bass, a beautiful species of fish. Each one I catch looks a little different, kinda like us humans, but they are all smallmouth bass. They are also simular to a largemouth bass, but still different. As humans we have desires to believe in something or somethings, it the way we are designed. It is not my place to tell you what to believe or not to believe in. At the end of the day when you lay down, just think of all this universe contains. Some would like to know it all like ole Adam, see what happen to him. It is so complex none of us can understand it all. What we all can understand is having a desire to believe in something. Put aside the offensive remarks posted in this forum and recall that we humans are superior to all species. I didn't say all humans, kidd'n, but really, nothing compares to us humans. This should be evidence that there is something very special about us. One thing special is we have dominion over "all" other species which is proven everyday in every life. I would not expect everyone to understand Chritianity unless they to come to the point that they have a desire to fill a void in their life. If you believe in evolution please study only proven "FACTS". Most creation science is never brought to public view, you may be surprised if you see the results of these studies. Whether a Evolutionist or a Creationalist, DO YOUR "OWN" HOMEWORK, don't just take a persons word on it, preacher or scientist. We do not put our faith in man, man will always disappoint us.
John 3:16 includes everyone. "EVERYONE" I am so glad too.
Good day to all.

Creationism is boring! How deep is that river?

The Judeo-Christian-Islamic concept of God itself has evolved over time. Let us not forget that polytheism long preceded monotheism and ancient polytheist belief systems continue to be practices today, more than three millennia after the introduction of the single deity idea in Ancient Egypt under Akhenaten. In the subsequent centuries, monotheistic traditions emerged in various parts of the world, including Buddhism, Zoroastrianism, Judaism, Mithraism, Christianity, Islam, Mormonism, etc. Typically, religions incorporate belief systems and traditions of older religions in order to make themselves more attractive to converts. Islam picks up where Christianity and Judaism left off. Christianity is built upon the foundations of Judaism and incorporates many aspects of the Mithraic mysteries, which was Christianity's main rival among the Legions during the days of the Roman Empire. Among the older monotheistic traditions, Judaism freely borrows from Zoroastrianism (namely dualism) and other Near Eastern mythologies that came before. Say what you want about evolution in regards to the natural world, but when it comes to the philosophical notion of a higher power/powers, our understanding of the great unknown has mutated and evolved over the ages, adapting certain characteristic and techniques in order to attract followers and thrive, while other incarnations have died out.

How can a very interesting article about a river and currents and underwater waterfalls and fish and discovery (d)evolve into an assinine "discussion" about creationism v evolution?
'Tis truly a mystery.
Warren

I'll never understand what religious fanatics are doing on science articles.
The entire definition of religion goes against science.
You can have your "faith" all you want. Just keep it out of the grown up world where we prefer to believe things that can actually be proven.

If i plant a seed and a plant grows,mother nature takes over and it grows on its own. Does that make me the "God" of that plant? Mother nature is god.

If God used evolution to create new species, He would not have been so specific as to say that each reproduced after "it's own kind". (Why bother making a little blob and then making it turn into everything else, when it's no sweat for Him to make everything else?)
Also, evolutionists love to tout this "finding new species", as though they were evolved yesterday. Those who can think a little more deeply may actually realize that those "new species" have actually been there for all of time, but are in such inaccessible places, such as, well, 1000 feet down at the confluence of a mighty river, that no one had the technology or motivation to find them until now.
And speaking of the motivation, FOLLOW THE MONEY! If evolutionists don't find "new species", or discover "man-like hominids" every few years, they're out of a job. No more funding or grants for their exotic expeditions. They HAVE to make "shocking discoveries" to prove their points, or they have to go back home and look for a real job!

Well...i don't believe in evolution, and i don't believe in God....but I do believe in life....I also think that something devine helped us bridge the gap in our planet. I believe in the other species that are similiar to ours hundreds of thoasands of years ago....if we don't have the link...how did we come to be?...well...I totally agree with many people that show as much proof as evolutionists that we were engineered.....this is why our dna is so similiar...read about it....it is more believable than evolution and some God.

Faith and science are NOT mutually exclusive. It's a shame that so many people are too afraid to expand their horizons enough to entertain the possibility that perhaps God left us a few surprises to discover on our own. Ultimately, the narrow-minded end up sounding like fanatical morons. Bummer.

The theory of evolution is not a "fact". Theories are not facts, by definition. Only if theories can be proven do they become LAWS. It seems that there are two churches here, one for evolution, and one for creation. Evolution is a pretty good theory that may be at least partly true. In contrast, the theory of creation has little scientific supporting evidence. But comparing the THEORY of evolution to the LAWS of gravity is just pure rubbish, sounds too much like religion. Scientists know that theories are all too often disproven by observations in the long run. Laws, like gravity ARE factual and can be verified every time by experiment. Someday evolution may very well be proven as a LAW(fact), but until then those who call it a "fact" are just part of the "church of evolution".

If evolution is a hoax how did the flue evolve into the swine flu all of the sudden?

how many different species of biological life have been found around the planet over the past 25 years?

jerry, could it be that those species have always been there and the reason so many have been discovered in the last 25 years is because of the advancment in technology and not evolution?

Having actually looked up "precis", and discovering I've misused it I find myself in the wrong 99%."Doh!" again.

99% of people who don't accept evolution have absolutely NO clue what it actually entails. It's sad.

Stop saying "God did it". It's the laziest thing humans have come up with. Does it really take that much to EDUCATE yourself rather than rely on a 2000 year old book?

Back to my main point:

LEARN ABOUT EVOLUTION and UNDERSTAND THE THEORY. Then you'll come back with a different opinion. Unless of course "God did it". In that case don't even bother. You'll never get it.

Science itself has proven so many biblical facts. God is the master scientist/teacher after all folks. Secular humanism is simply another religion. It takes more faith to believe in evolution than creationism imo. Show us transitional proof that makes evolution something more than a theory. Try actually reading and grasping the written Word before jumping on a fallible man's (Darwin) theory wagon. Realize that all living things can and do "adapt" to their environment. When we evolve from children to adults we do not change into a different species. Plants evolve from seeds to become their final product as well. They don't change into anything other than what they were intended to be...a plant. Sure genes can mutate...hence cancer right? That doesn't make the object a different product...it makes it the same product with a mutation. Ignorance is bliss. A fool says in his heart there is no God. Grasp that man introduced sin into the world and brought on all the woes we've endured from creation to present date. Secularists/atheists need to comprehend that they are indeed sinners and that the message is that Christ is THE WAY in which they MUST be saved. Science hasn't negated creationism...simply proves it.

Good point! But which God do you speak of?? I guess, it depends on which religion you follow? or if you follow science..............

I truly beleive in the theory of evolution, I was surrounded by Christianity growing up but refuse to be that close minded. The Bible isn't a perfect book. It was written by humans, just like us, who are in no way are 100% percent flawless. Take things out of the Bible that will actually make yourself and others better people. Quit wasting your time on putting down science. Open your mind.

my how the interesting article on the congo is followed by such a lengthy and impassioned variety of opinions on evolution. why can so many not reconcile their faith with evolution? why is evolution a threat to so many?
as for a Creator,an afterlife and all that, i like bill maher's attitude, "i don't know".

People kind of make me sick with their whole evolution dispute. I happen to be a biology degree with a cellular/molecular emphisis and a biochemistry minor. However most people disputing evolutionary change have no understanding or learning in the area of biology or in genetics or molecular genetics. They probably couldn't tell me the differece betweena bacillus and a cocci, nor a SNURP and a ribosome, which makes me sad.

I'm a biology person, so I don't know anything about physics. As such, I would never go tell Stephen Hawking or Einstein or whatnot that there is no String Theory or Theory of Relativity and they're inherently wrong. I am not competent to make judgements in areas I'm not learned in, therefore, the majority of people complaining about evolution are not competent enough to make assumptions about evolution. It's rude, and you have to pay your dues before you are taken seriously. it's just as rude as a child one-upping their parent.

This age old death-match grudge between religion and science has really got to end. You'd think in some 1500 years we'd be able to make a compromise, but apparently not. All I know is that I didn't pay thousands of dollars and go to school to have some 6th grade drop out in Kentucky tell me they know better than me. If you want to argue about it, first receive an equal education, and then you would actually be considered as there are many scientists that dispute each other's claims. Maybe that will give someone a goal. Go get a doctorate in evolutionary biology area just so you will have real grounds to disprove theories.

The Congo River was dug and stocked with weird fish by aliens! Take that evolution disbelievers.

I firmly believe in the reality of the physical world, and the God of all Creation. The same God of Abraham, Moses, Mohammad, and all of the Christian world. I think this God is often imperfectly grasped. Which is why Jesus said that we are not to judge one another. What was revealed in Genesis is not likely literally true. It seems that in Genesis, men and women were made of mud, but that later woman was made from a rib. Enough. You figure this one out: it is written that God knows every hair on the top of your head. Yet, counting hair folicles, so does a taxonomist. The same number of hairs on a chimpanzee. If you walk upon this earth as an enlightened animal, you ought to thank your God, and not judge the rest. Much better to show the world you are not merely an animal by transcending these petty debates (which, of course, I have failed to do).

The current of this article seems to divide, submerge and flow through an "Out of Africa" species differentiation and individuation between Evolutionists and Creationists futher downstream to a confluence of primordial mud.

For those that believe that humans evolved from primates....

Answer me this: If we are really related to primates, then why is it that we have not seen any more signs of evolution from the primates other than the typical adapting to environment, etc.? Wouldn't the rest of the primates, even if only few, evolve to "humans" as well if we really were from the same genetic line as monkeys/apes so that they too could be at the "top of the food chain" and such? Isn't that what evolution is? So a creature can better adapt to their environment for survival? So again, why is it that there are no signs of any primates evolving into humans to better survive anymore, if we really are evolved versions of primates? Perhaps because primates and humans were completely different creatures in the first place, no?

I myself am a Christian, but I do believe in evolution to a certain extent(animals adapting for survival, etc). Of course, not as far as humans having come from primates.

Everyone has their own beliefs, so we should all stop trying to argue our point and leave it at that. If you get upset when people argue about your own belief, aren't you just being hypocritical when you're criticizing their belief in return?

-Sabrina

Right... evolution is a hoax... and a man lived inside a whale for 3 months... women were made from a man's rib... a boat was made to fit 2 of every living creature on earth... sure...

Posted by DBO on November 7,2009 | 09:19AM

I dont ussually respond to these types of articles but the comments were ridiculous, funny and interesting.
Do we doubt our own Creator, that he is not capable of creating everything there is and ever was? Jehovah God is capable of doing ANYTHING. From creating a person FROM A RIB, to letting a person live inside a whale for three months. And the Ark. . . anything is possible. Evolution doesnt make sense to me and i say that with the uderstanding of the teory itself. Imagine you created a beautiful portrait and someone says you didnt, giving all the credit to a machine or another person. Would you not be hurt or upset? Imagine if your own children rejected you as thier parent. Would not you be devestated. Now... How do you think He feels. If you dont beleive in the Bible thats fine, no one will force you to, but have all you people that say it is false even studied it before, or is that just your pre-concieved notion about it? Something to think about, is it not?

OY!! What heated debate!! The article was interesting, but I had also seen the special on TV. Cool stuff!!!
But listen, niether side of the evolution/creation debate has been proven as FACT, that is, niether has been observered. Lots of evidence suggesting that evolution IS a fact, however nothing has been observed.
Let's all look at how some Native Americans view "GOD"... Often referred to as the "WAH" or more correctly, the sound of the exhalation of breath. It is the "BIG BREATH" that all of "creation" comes from. Wtihin that material, were all the "ingredients" for the eventual evolution of species into "humanoid" form(since the "WAH" was "humanoid" in form. Again, NOT a provable FACT... However, how different is that from the "theory" of the Big Bang???
Let's look at the book of GENISIS as found in the BIBLE.
There is AMPLE evidence from the Sumerian and Akkadian libraries that have been unearthed that the Story of Creation found in Genisis is actually a retelling(and condensed, like a READER's DIGEST version) of the story of CREATION found in the WORLD'S OLDEST WRITTEN LANGUAGE; cuneiform. In the Sumerian version, the "GOD"(or better translated as one of "those who from HEAVEN to EARTH came"), Lord EA, took a "primitive ape-beast" and "mixed" it with the "essence" of the "GOD". In fact, the process is described very much as a genetic experiment!!!
HHHMMMM..... There are galaxies that are BILLIONS of years older than ours.
Could it be possible that BOTH theories are on the RIGHT TRACK?!?!
Look some of this stuff up. Facinating!!!!
Since this 'post war' had digressed, I thought I'd throw some things out there for you ALL to think about

RK

It saddens me that so many people oppose science and view scienific research as false because "the Good Book" doesn't include such findings in its prose. I hate to dissapoint some you, but the Bible is a collection of "research" passed on for hundreds of years, and yes, it too has evolved. There are many subjects, chapters, books that are lost and porposely "misplaced" for the sole reason of translation from one form of Christianity to the next. No I do not consider myself a Christian, though I do BELIEVE in a higher power. I feel that we as humans evolve several times in one lifetime, though we are too ignorant to realize for we ourselves are just another species in the wide sceme of things. I understand that many of you will disagree with me, as I with you, this post is not meant as an insult mearly an opinion for the open-minded.

Liked the article. Yes their is such thing as evolution. People tend to get thier panties in a roar over this subject. Science is based on facts of observation over time. Science only answers questions dealing with the natural world, that can be tested using the scientific method, science is amoral, and requires a great deal of time. People and animals tend to evolve around the surroundings do to the fact they must adapt or the species will be wiped out.

Of course it also took the church some three or four hundred years to come with grips with the sun being the center of the solar system with the planets revolving around the sun. "God" forbid if man wasn't the center of everything.

and why are there primates still if we evolved from primates?

Because the primates that are here today evolved in different enviornments under different enviornmental conditions, hence we have diversity and similarites amongst the primates, the ones that could adapt to enviornmental changes lived, the ones who couldn't went extinct. So today, we have primates living in their enviornments that have adapted to the enviornment that they live in. Enviormental change can cause them to go extinct or they can adapt to any changes and live only time will tell.

I am a Christian and firmly believe that God created the heavens and the earth. However, I do believe that change over time occurs, and that animals change based upon where they live. I believe science and God fit together well.

Iv'e just finished having a "discussion" with my "born again" Christian friends regarding evolution. It is definitely an excercise in futility. For anyone who really wants a good laymens' update on the latest in evolutionary science, I would recommend Richard Dawkins' book, "The greatest show on Earth". He gives a wonderful update on the science behind evolution. For those who deny fossil evidence for evolution, you are simply denying the facts. Go to the Smithsonian and see it for yourselves. More importantly, the evidence for evolution is overwhelming even without a single fossile. Again, see Dawkins' book for the details.
Having been a "born again" for 8 years, I know most don't even bother to really look at the evidence. They react out of fear and blind faith. Don't be afraid! Look at the evidence and then make a rational conclusion. At the same time, I do beleive in the transcendental. We may not really understand it, but the physical realm is not all there is to our universe. Ignorance and intolerance is the root of the problem. Elevate your consciousness and appreciate the transcendant in the physical realm.

What in the world are you all saying?

The study of this planet and the life it supports, and has done so for so, so long, WITH ALL OF ITS CHANGES THROUGHOUT ITS TIME, leaves every reasoning person to take a clear, distinct and non-duplicitous position (forgive the use of the word) - either this (planet, with its extraordianry and still to be numbered variations of changing life forms) is the most wonderful, complex, and perfectly balanced, yet ever-changing [evolving, if you must] accident, or a magnificently designed and perfectly positioned jewel in the universe.

If, upon due consideration, your position is the latter, then seek The Designer. With the complexities involved in what we continue to discover here, it is very likely the He still exists. It is rumored (my, what an unscientific term ... that usually prompts proper investigation) that if you seek Him, you WILL find him....

Science has PROVEN unequivocally: 1) life will spontaneously generate (experiment from about 40 years ago), 2) over time, species will evolve into other species through genetic mutations and natural selection. DNA mutations occur naturally and frequently. Most of these DNA changes do not radically change a species physical appearance or ability to reproduce. In addition to unequivocal fossil records, some scientists have viewed species evolve over relatively short time spans as part of their work, although most of us have not. Many of us refuse to believe the work of tens of thousands of people over more than 100 years. All with the same result. One hundred years ago this was not true, however, TODAY WE HAVE CLEAR PROOF OF MANS EVOLUTION.

The argument I keep hearing is equivalent to: I have not seen the atmosphere therefore it is a lie. A silly argument. The assertion that evolution is a lie is spread primarily by those who fear change, especially a change that could reduce the power of religious individuals, organizations, and symbols. Religion and its protectors have vociferously fought change for thousands of years. Their opposition to evolution is founded on political considerations, not fact. Eventually they will be forced to accept evolution, and they will adapt. If not, all our maps must be changed to show the world is flat and the sun revolves around the earth.

i believe in creationism and also evolution. A very prime example of evolution that is occurring in our society right now is the H1N1. Swine flu was around in the 70's now it has evolved and now its a different strain called H1N1. Another good example is MRSA, MRSA is a form is staff that is resistant to antibiotics so it evolved to be resistant to the antibiotics great example.

i truly believe GOD created us all but it says nothing anywhere about giving all life the ability to evolve to survive as our world changes why not believe in a creator who was smart enough to do this be smart enough to make sure we survived by evolving just a theory but i think it answers both ideas thanks have a blessed day

... I neglected to say, EXCELLENT WORK, Team!

Science and theology are just different sides of the same cube...(6 primary interogatives)...who,what,why,when,where,how...place one question on each of the six sides of a cube...science is looking at the how and when...theology is looking at the who and why...they already agree on the what and where...where is the known universe and what is everything contained there-in...science and theology are ultimately looking for the same thing...they are just coming at it from different sides of the same cube...they are not so opposed as they would like to think...(God said,"Let there be light")...(science sayes,"Big Bang")...SAME EVENT!!!

Evolution must be excepted by faith so must creation. No one has seen either occur. This arguement is pointless neither side will give up.

For the Bible thumpers, they say that God was always here, he had no begining and will have no end, does anybody here really buy that?

More than likely, none of us will ever know or understand why we are here or who created us, i say we just enjoy the things we see, finding new species in the Congo being one of them.

Lets agree to disagree. I read an interesting article. I started reading the comments in hope ofgetting additional information about the study or simular studies. And it turns into a relgious argument! It is really sad, with everything else that is going on in the world that a single comment posted started an angry debate over relgion and not have anything to do with the orginal article. The "hoax" person succeeded in what he/she wanted. I'm a deployed soldier....i was hoping for something better.

It may be impossible to win and arguement with an ignorant man, it is equally impossible to show a blind man the truth. I have yet to hear of any tanglible proof that "
The Big Bang" first of all really happened, and second of all created life. If you think about it rationally it is pretty far fetched. To think that some random gases and other chemicals turned in to an ameba, then an amphibian, that decided one day to walk on land and over time became a primate (Monkey) that EVOLVED into a man with the ability to think and reason and create??? Sorry, not buyin it. What is interesting to me is the superior attitude of those who do believe it. I think they are afraid to admit that God exists because then they would have to let go of their superior attitude and live the way HE would have them live, and treat others the way HE would have them treat others. Romans 1:20 (yes I am about to quote the Bible). Romans 1:20 "For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities - his eternal power and divine nature - have been clearly seen, BEING UNDERSTOOD FROM WHAT HAS BEEN MADE, SO THAT MEN ARE WITHOUT EXCUSE." The creation knows the creator, knows that He exists. It does not matter how many big words you use, or how intelligent you sound, you can not disprove Him. And His word says, you are without excuse.

Great article, the various creatures found just strenghten my belief in God and His creative powers.

I'm not going sit here and one or the other is right . I will only say that in my personal opinion , something caused everything to "be" right down to the last molecule . Everything was set in motion to progress forward and to adapt as necessary. If you think about it in the right proportions both sides of the coin can fit in to one explanation ( if your open minded enough.) everything starts somewhere and after that , things continue as they are meant to. So to put it bluntly, How do any of us know for a fact that evolution is not part of creation? Everything has it's place and purpose, including humans. And besides that I don't care what anyone say's, the idea of not being there one day, and then being there the next is the stuff of magic and fantasy. Next thing you know some one will try to say "Orc's were real at one point just because they believe it is true.
And maybe if I believe hard enough, the money fairy will make me rich too.
the point is that religion is all fine and dandy, but it doesn't explain everything. But hey, believe what you want.

It's difficult for me to understand how this wonderful field study of fish in the Congo has "evolved" into a "evolution vs. creationism" argument.

Or, perhaps this is the way things should shape up in accordance with particle physics: 1) The universe as we know it was created by the action of matter vs. anti-matter. 2) When a particle of matter meets anti-matter, normally they both disintegrate in an explosion. 3) It is a fact that, at least in our universe, matter seems to predominate (no one knows why). 4) It seems that light is produced from the electron meeting its anti-matter companion, which results in what we call "light", and which is composed of both matter and anti-matter.

From these facts, I could say that Zoroaster was correct when he said that there were two beings that created the world - Ahura Mazda and Angra Malo (Good and Evil or Positive and Negative). Unfortunately, however, Angra Malo is the negative force (which our electron is (vs. the positron, its anti-matter partner), that was triumphant in the universe we know). However, I would like to avoid such speculation.

About Genesis, the first book of Torah, "Genesis": it was first written down in about 900 BC, during the "Babylonian Captivity" of the Jews, probably due to the crisis of faith in what they believed was their destiny to be returned to their sacred city of Jerusalem. This was a collection of myths and stories about the beginnings of their civilization, written to encourage them in their long journey home to the "promised land". This was a collection of stories suspiciously close to certain stories in the "Epic of Gilgamesh" of Sumerian origin, discovered in the 19th Century and translated from the Sumer hieroglyphs.

This is not to discredit the Genesis account, which differs from the Gilgamesh Epic in rendering humanistic rule of law in a unique manner differing radically from the Sumerian ideas.

So where did God come from???? A question that is conveniently ignored by the religious... was he/she 'created' or did he/she evolve??? Answer: God was created by Man, who evolved from nature. Thus, God (or the God meme) is a product of evolution just like all other life and life constructs (ideas, culture etc). Look at modern religions... they are different species of the monotheism meme!!! Taken root in different cultures, and evolved into separate species, Just as described in the article. Its so simple and obvious.... yet the believers are willing to die rather than see the truth, a powerful meme!!!

A few commenters hinted at this but none put it explicitly:
For the sake of argument, leave the Bible aside for a moment. If macro-evolution is true, then mammals must have evolved from some non-mammalian species, perhaps reptiles or birds or even fish into whales. If so, how did the first mammal born to its no doubt shocked reptile or bird or fish mother survive infancy? It couldn't nurse from a mother with no breasts! Unless you grant the possibility of breasts evolving on reptiles, birds or fish for the as yet unknown new mammal species to survive, the poor baby is out of luck! Any ideas?

The search for our origins is not so mysterious.
We are being observed by higher life forms just as we observe our sub-creatures here in this dimension. God or the creator adopts the same observational rules as we observe here. We do not interfere with the course of nature but allow death even murder to occur even though we have the power to stop it or alter the course of nature.
There are exceptions to this rule if extinction or extreme compassion is present. (miracles for humans) A good example is Jane Goodall's work with chimpanzes. She observes them as they fight, kill, murder, canabalize and wage war just like their human counterparts. She does not intervene!
See the parrallel?
Humans are fatally flawed and most who have this revelation of the spirit and dimensional plane recognize it as "sin".
Look around you! Everyone is dysfunctional to some degree!
We will eventually destroy this planet unless we are stopped.
Greed and corruption enslave the poor and good of heart.
How can we stop the inevitable? How can we escape to another dimension free of evil and sin?
Jesus said, I am the Way the Truth and the Life. No human returns to their creator but by me.....
A person of high intellect and logic will quickly recognize perfection or sinlessness cannot be attained thru re-incarnation. It would take a "thousand" lifetimes just to scratch the surface!
There must be a quicker way to get home or back to our origin?
Surely our observer has made a way of escape if we are willing to risk everything. Accepting a pure, perfect sacrifice for all our sins.... a cloak of righteousness seen and accepted by our creator.
Think for a moment? Who would you honestly pick as your sacrifice? Buda (sin of obesity)Mohammed (a warrior)?
Read the 1st chapter of Saint John verses 1-10.
It expalins your origin.....Romans chapter 3;10-23, 6;23, 10;9
The Mystery....Ephesians chapter 3;9 The Answer to the mystery.......Colossians chapter 1,13-17.....1,26

Comments about evolution being a hoax are fascinating. If Genesis is to be believed, and we were all created at the same time, then technically Dinosaurs havent been dead for millions of years. Its been proven that Human-like animals have been around for only about 5 million years, and Neanderthals and modern man much much less. If the Bible is correct, Humans and Dinosaurs were living at the same time. So why then do we have no records of humans ever encountering dinosaurs and having to fight for their lives? Surely if we were alive at the same time, it would be commonplace for a village to be wiped out by T.Rex or other such animals. I hate to burst your bubble, but God doesnt exist. I can prove this in a simple statement. God is said to be forgiving and protective of those that cause no harm, but where is God when thousands of children die each day in Africa and other places?

Tell me again how Jesus made the dinosaurs go extinct...?

Nice pics!

Evolution explains God's way of making changes.

God created evoloution.

We will never know how the earth,animals and Man were created by God, until we pass to the otherside. God had a plan and it occurried according to His plan. If we believe in faith thats all thats required. I to have always wanted to know how God accomplised this magnificant feat. I truly believe we are not able to comprehend with our minds just how He did it.

There is no such thing as evolution... Now cross breeding is a different story however... thus creating different species!

Evolution fine but no apology to Darwin: Vatican
http://www.reuters.com/article/scienceNews/idUSLG62672220080916

The Vatican claims Darwin's theory of evolution is compatible with Christianity
- The Vatican has admitted that Charles Darwin's theory of evolution should not have been dismissed and claimed it is compatible with the Christian view of Creation.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/religion/4588289/The-Vatican-claims-Darwins-theory-of-evolution-is-compatible-with-Christianity.html

Vatican Official Defends Evolution Against 'Useless' Creationism
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,424942,00.html

if any bible thumping evolution bashing person knows who ardie is, then you have no case in denying evolution. she is all the proof you need. not to mention, evolution, in my opinion, is certainly happening today, within the human race. the more each race mixes with eachother, the stronger and more healthy we become. pretty soon (probably thousands of years, yet just a blip in the timeline of earth) we will most likely become an incomprehensibly intelligent species, one that will become extremely different from the humans we see today. a sort of "grey race" if you will, due to the fact we will have become so integrated as a people, that each skin color has blended with each other that we will most likely be some color no human has ever seen on onother person (most likely grey). now, i know alot of people will bash me for saying this (more than likely the religious) but i must also say that i am a church going catholic my self and i see nothing wrong with creationism and evolution coexisting. another poster also stated something i thought interesting. that god relays his actions in a way we can comprehend such things as no person can every fully comprehend the word of god. whose to say that god just created the earth and everything on it? why couldn't god have created the universe? believing that god and only god put us here or believing that its evolution and thats that is as small minded as saying that "we humans are the only intelligent beings in the universe. there is no living entity outside of our solar system be it inferior or superior" unfortunately there are people on both sides of this argument that believe this statement to be true. but i ask why? it is not like the universe is finite. is there a wall where it all ends? well then whatsoever on the other side? we as humans will always want answers and as long as someone asks questions we will not stop till we find our answers. im beginning to feel like im rambling so ill see you later live long and prosper

Has anyone ever considered that God is infinitly more wise and all knowing than we could ever comprehend? Only we would say it's either creation or evolution, one or the other. Maybe God created us and we evolve, ever think of that? They say he works in mysterious ways, maybe evolution is one of his ways in which He works.

Just a thought - evolution may just be another name for the time period in which God created the heavens and earth. From the time I was a little girl, I have never heard anyone say that the Bible or any other faith doctorate states that the days in which God worked was 24 hours. When you are eternal what would constitute the time frame that you would work, live and rest? The miracles and tragedies in life is proof that God isn't done and man is not through learning and making mistakes.

Most probably god is busy down there. Don't you think so, believers of god?

I found this to be a good article. However, Iwas sorely dissappointed by the comments, I noticed 3 people stated evolution and natural selectio nare not the same, if the yhad taken basic biology they;d know that natural selection is based on genetics, some mutations or diffreneces in the genetics of one member of a species could help it survive better. Now take that, and add millions of years for new mutations to pass natural selection and you theoretically could get a new species. and for those who say we have seen no evidence, the earth is still very young in comparison to many of the celestial bodies, and man is even younger in comparison to earth.

I am a scientist and I was amazed to read that people think Evolution does not predict anything. It does: it predicts that species who split apart recently will have more similarities in their genetical make-up (DNA) than species that have been seperated long ago. This prediction comes out perfectly: man and chimpansee are very similar on DNA level, man and yeast (the fungus like stuf we use to make dough rise or turn grapes into wine)are very different. But the way DNA works is the same: human genes work in yeast cells because we originate from the same ancestor (a one cell organism living billions of years ago) that used certain enzymes to make proteins from DNA. That's the reason you can use mouse genes to grow eyes on fruitflies: we are só similar inside our cells that genes are interchangeable between species.
If there is a God he/she(?) could have created the world this way but why make bipedal man do with a spine that's really a sloppy adaptation from a four-footed animal spine? He/she could have created a man that's not so likely to get an hernia if he/she wanted to. Evolution is not perfect: all living creatures are just the best possible adaptations of a common ground plan to ever changing circumstances. I would expect a (perfect?) God to have made a better job of things.

Evolution is great seeing one thing become another. Either for it's benefit or throught mutations that may not help it. But it is a great thing to learn and study. Now as for the anti-evolution people i would like to ask this if genesis is true then where are dinosaurs and other animals that predate man and the bible come in? Before i get blasted I am an idealist who beleaves in what in what is there infront of me. Evolution just because of evidence has more backing then the bible. All things have an ancient relative that was around in differant times. We weren't just placed here to ruin what was built. Humans have grown and evolved into a creature who uses his mind and has partially abandon the religions of old seeing there is no longer a need to place false idols into places of nature's forces. We have no more fear of the dark, weather, or the unknown. So let's all evolve into people who care for our planet and help her back into a world we can live on forever. Not just for ourselves but for our future generations.

there is no conflict between god & science. science is the discovery of god's universe.

Evolution is not a fact rather it is a well understood and documented theory about how life came to exist in its current form on Earth. Men did not evolve form monkees rather we share a common ancestor millions of years in the past. As for the statement that there are no transitional fossils, that is untrue. The cetaceans or whales have clear evolutionary fossil record showing transitional forms from an early wolf like land mammal into the giant marine mammals they are today. Evolution does not exclude God. Why cannot God have created the natural world and evolution is the mechanism he chose to fill it with.

Show me the proof that a god created anything here.

I think yuo're all wasting your time arguing over the whole evolution/creation theories. There are no concrete facts to support either theory. Both sides will always refuse to see the other sides point of view. So instead of fighting about how we got here, why don't we all get off our computers and do everything we can to make being here great? And why don't we do everything possible to ensure the prosperity of our future generations.

Micro and Macro evolution.
1. Microevolution is the occurrence of small-scale changes in allele frequencies in a population, over a few generations, also known as "change below the species level.

2. Macroevolution is a scale of analysis of evolution in separated gene pools.

Now for you scientist lets use some "not so common" Common sense. Yes Micro evolution is real and does happen, i.e. two parents with brown hair can have a blonde haired child. We know this can be caused by dominant and recessive genes.

However Macro evolution, such as two human parents having a chicken has never and will never happen.

In order for Micro evolution to work the only requirements are for two creatures to be similar enough in their genome that they can a. succesfully breed and B. successfully pass on their genetic traits.

But this is impossible in Macro Evolution. I.E. a fish and dog cannot successfully breed to produce a dogfish. :)

But the best example of why Macroevolution is flawed is also perhaps the only example of it. The Butterfly. For a creature to change so drastically its form would preclude it from ever having been able to mate to start with. If only 1 caterpillar became a butterfly how would it then mate to create another caterpillar unless two did the same mutation at the same time. This would be the equivalent of a Monkey typing hamlet with no errors while smoking cannabis.

P.S. For those of you trying to kill God or ridicule those who believe in a God; shouldn't you go back before life on Earth to that big bang moment? Or did that whole first mover thing confuse or scare you. And we know the universe isn't expanding and contracting like the old arguement use to say. Your own science proved this by showing the energy loss due to cooling as the universe expands.

Evolution is what keeps things interesting. Stagnant is a stinky cologne.
Don't be ignorant. Ever see the movie, "Idiocracy"?
Unfortunately, it may be closer to realism than many may think.

JMC

I don't know why anyone bothers to "argue" with creationists; they have no interest in the truth, or logic, or anything else except their own narrow views. That way they don't have to think. Just leave them to believe what they want.

Martin, the reason that there are walleye and pike in almost every lake in Canada and the northern part of the USA is because people put them there for game fishing.

I would love to see this river some day. It's my dream to have a several thousand gallon tank with a "pack" of goliath tiger fish.

I believe God exists, and also evolution. But think about this: God didn't create the monkey, and it turned into Adam or Eve. He created them as humans.

Killer Bees anyone???????

For those who only believe in evolution or just creation, please bare with me a momement.
"If" the Bible were correct, and man & the world were created; fell from grace in sin and then the world became a hostile place for us to live.
Maybe evolution has been a misnomer and the proper word should be DE-evolution. Instead of us being the highest form of evolution, we are just what de-evolved from a form that never would've needed to change if the world had not become hostile. This would follow for all other life as well as humans. This is why we're lucky/blessed to live past 100 years, while the Bible listed many that lived hundreds of years. ( A few made it to almost 1000 yrs)
We are just a shadow of what we should've and could've been!

We are just a small experiment in the universe that we know of. We cannot prove that it started, nor can we prove that it will end. We can only hope to understand our where and now. To claim that science or religion has all the answers is foolish. Because we do not understand where we came from, or began to exist.

The specimens included a " prehistoric looking catfish. It's gills still flapping". Oh look, a new species----Let's kill it. G-d help us all.

Anyone ever heard of MRSA (methicillin-resistant Staphylococcus aureus)? How do you think that a simple microorganism like Staphylococcus aureus became resistant to methicillin? IT EVOLVED!

i think that the belief in god is very understandable, but so is evolution. for all of the people that try to use the argument of not having proof of evolution so it its not real, were just raised by their parents to believe in god. They need to understand that while there is no "proof" that evolution exists there is also no "proof" that god exists. And for anyone that says faith is their proof, then what about the people of other religions that have faith that their religion is correct.

If everyone on this blog would watch a few episodes of Spongebob, everything would be explained....

Matthew Miller is WRONG. Evolution is a proven fact for those with the capacity to read and critically think. Fairytales, like revelational religions are not factual.

While I have no real religious belief's, I find it a lot easier to believe in evolution over the idea that with the snap of God's fingers there was life. And stupid question to many of the people here...do people really still believe in the story of Adam & Eve?

Wow never seen this kind of response to anything lol......the only fact to disbelieve is when it says medical in front of it. Somebody i'm not sure who, said that if God wasn't real he was mans greatest invention. I like that statement.

I don't care how you look at it, this is some neat stuff going on here....and all over the world. Thank the Goddess for all forms of life :D

very intresting to see all the opinions of everybody and i belive in GOD and creation but also in adaptation but not in evolution it is ridiculus GOD made us and allows for our bodies to change to adapte the problem is how beliefs have changed over time i think everyone is wrong to a certin point and right i think we cahnge to adapt but we were created by GOD if we spent more time working to gether and repecting the opions of everyone and looking to get all the facts staight instead of arguing about it wed be a lot further in intelligence but that is my opion and before you star slamming me yes im a christian and will teach my kids to be a chritians and i know i cant spell worht a darn but i dont care because i have the right to choose what i care about and believe in just like i choose to beleive in GOD and in science because god created us and ours minds and our minds developed science oh and where is the deepest river at know one really adressed that

people like highwaysdelight are incapable of logical, critical thinking. different lineages of primates have evolved down different paths. Evolution is the most well supported scientific concept of all the biological concepts. An a theory is not a questionable explanation. it is a construct that is fully supported by empirical evidence obtained through observation or experimentation.

People, wake up! Evolution is a scientific fact. That is one of the things I admire about science. It is the quest for TRUTH about everything in the universe. One can have faith and that's fine but to say that some superior being created everything? Come on! Open your eyes and grow up! That is such an archaic way of thinking. Look at the countries that believe such nonsense. The more third world, the more they believe in such rubbish. Ages ago, people had many questions. Why do stars twinkle? What is a star? etc but nobody could answer such questions so it was just said that "god" created those things and that's all you need to know. Period. Wow, what an answer! Let's seek knowledge and understanding about our world and universe through scientific study and research and let go of the religous dogma because it goes nowhere. I'm not saying to not have faith but when you let it get in the way of truly learning about our world then you are at a loss and very disadvantaged.

Evolution is a Theory, am I right about that? I don't see a conflict between Evolution and Creationism. Although, most of us have questioned the viability of the Ape, in general, and the Chimpanzee, in particular, as our forefathers. The discovery of Ardi confirms this. Who can say how GOD proceeded? We have minds that are limited by birth and death. We can not conceive of Infinity. We should just be overwhelmed by the miracle, the gift, of it all and quit grousing.

I'm a scientist and a Christian. How does that grab you?

A God, who can create a vast Universe, is well capable of creating all scientific laws and Evolution. Who are we to even begin to limit what God can do or not do? A God that you can limit is NOT worth believing in!!

My take on many of these comments, both pro-evolution and anti-evolution is that they sound a bit on the egotistical side. Oh the self conceit of man!! Look at me, I believe in evolution or I believe in God. Please people, get a life!!

Who can prove that God is incapable of creating evolution?
Who can prove that there is no God?

Some things are belief and are accepted without proof. That is the nature of a belief. Some things are proveable facts and must be backed by observations. Accepting one does NOT cancel out the other. Besides evolution is a theory not a law. Go look up BOTH in Webster's. Many theories have been replaced or altered over time when new evidence has been found. For example, the theory of Spontaneous Regeneration.

Why don't all of you just agree to agree that we live in a wonderful and amazing Universe that makes all of us fell amazingly tiny!! Besides which of you think that you know all there is to know about the Universe? Let him cast the first stone, as Someone once said. So much for the self conceit of man!!

All of you have a wonderful life!!

If you look around at the world and see how complex it is then you'd have to be an idiot not to realize someone a whole heck of a lot smarter than you came up with all of this. That being said, I do think that our wonderful creator allowed for the ability of animals to ADAPT to their environment, but not evolve. Monkeys are still monkeys and fish are still fish, they may just have developed new traits or abilities that help them survive. They do not, however, become something new. HighwaysDelight put it very well: why are there still monkeys if we evolved from them and why aren't they still changing? Think on that, you evolutionists.
And just a little tidbit: Darwin himself said there were flaws in his theories, such as the fact that even he had no clue how to explain how complex the human eye is compared with monkey eyes. The creator of the theory you are all so fond of even believed it was flawed, so ha!

I personally believe that God originaly created everything, include the first life forms. then i think he set it up so evolution could begin and continue on its own, although he could still make individual changes if he wished.

I'm not going to argue the discussion of evolution-vs-creationism but I want to submit one small fact to consider. According to the "National Geographic News".."scientists have sequenced the genome of the chimpanzee and found that human's are 96% similar to the great ape species". They also went on to say the number of genetic differences between humans and chimps is 10 times smaller than rats and mice...How does this exist without evolution having taken place?

I'm glad i happened across this article. The fact that people get this up in arms about their beliefs is hilarious to me. I am personally not sold on christianity or any other religion for that matter. I personally believe that organized religions are the worst thing that ever happened to mankind. Almost every major conflict and awful crime against humanity have either been carried out in the name of a religion or because of someones religion. The crusades, haloucaust, spanish inquisition, recent terror attacks, Salem witch trials etc.... I dont think we will ever have any semblance of world peace until people stop swallowing ancient beliefs that have been forced onto them since childhood by their parents. I would challenge every person on here that has called someone else ignorant for beleiving in scientifically proven theories to really think long and hard about where their beliefs really came from. If their parents are catholic i bet their catholic. If their Jewish, I'm betting Jewish, the same applies for muslims, baptists, hindu's etc... It's just luck of the draw what kind of family your born into. SO before you get so up in arms about someone challenging your beliefs, think about why you feel that way.

WOW! The amount of closed minded, intollerant ignorance on these comment strings never ceases to amaze me. Evolutionists: while there is plenty of scientific evidence that biologic entities do indeed change(evolve) to adapt to their environment, there is absolutely no evidence, beyond certain similarities, that any species has or can "evolve" into something completely different. Your blind faith in this non-fact is RELIGION! By the definition empirical science the "facts" change with every new "discovery". Anyone claiming to be on the side of science cannot lock themselves into any one belief or theory. The first rule-question everything.
Religious posters: same thing. If God created such a complicated world, then He also created science. Why do you not believe His creations could possibly have the ability to change over time to adapt and continue thier lives? Wouldn't God want his creations to continue? Look at the differences between the races of humans. We cannot all still be exactly in His image! This is indeed "evolution"! Relax, don't forget to breathe, evolution is only a word, not the pure embodyment of evil. Let's not forget that this same fear of science drove the inquisitions and witch trials!!!
It seems stupid to be so touchy that you bristle over what amounts to nothing more than semantics. Both sides are far too closed minded to see that you are really arguing two sides of the same coin. You all just need to open your minds and close your mouths! There are much more important things in life people. I'm just saying.

Getting back to the river and new species " I find it exciting to see new species adapted to there enviorment that is a gift of God. Another place that concerns me is the area in central canada to be flooded it is left deep because the glaciers took the earth south this is close to the area discovered in the mid 1900's by that famouse doctor. Creatures that thrived on this hot river jungle planet early earth critters that looked nothing like any creatures alive today evolution is a fact missing skeletons will be found in china or some island where other evolutionary changes occur people and elephants have been known to shrink along with other animals on smaller islands over time.People have been known to get bigger on bigger isolated areas that required hieght and endurance people animals adapt it is all Gods Plan maybe for people to spread out in the universe somday ?

Evolution I think is just a way of adaptation... Its all about natural selection.

Water that flows at "1.25 cubic feet per second, enough to fill 13 Olympic-size swimming pools per second?" And, page 2's explanation of the "underground" waterfall, "a 40-foot" one--enuf said--that's f'in amazing, whoa!! Then, I wish, too, for a way to rescue those "blind" fish, trapped in the area where no light may get to them...

Hey Truthi...if evolution is a HOAX, then tell me why we have facial hair.

This was an interesting article, as were the comments by the people who understand and appreciate science. Creationists neither understand nor appreciate science. Just reading some of their comments proved that. They don't know what they are talking about. For example, many transitional fossils have been found and carbon dating is very accurate when used correctly, as are the other dating systems when used correctly. Christians are supposed to be humble, but Creationists are arrogant people who think that their interpretation of the Bible is the only correct one; that all other Chrisatians who interpret the Bible differently are wrong; and that all science that contradicts their Biblical interpretation is wrong. Creationists reject not only evolution but much of what we have learned in the fields of archaeology; anthropology; biology; geology; astronomy; and cosmology. They think they know more than everyone else on the planet (The other 99% of us who disagree with them). You can't get more arrogant than that!

Just a question.If god made everything,who made god? Like the question,what came first,the chickin or the egg?

Who's God? The gods of the bible created man from primal man & themselves, you Christians are worshipping an alien race who made us to be their slaves. (That's why it talks so much about slaves in the bible.) Why are our 2nd and 3rd chromosones bonded together? Did evolution mess up or did god mess up? Why do you suppose most all other creatures have 48 chromosones and we have 46? Why do we have junk DNA we don't use? A chicken has more usable DNA than we do ... and science will not tell us the right answers either ... BECAUSE

The real truth is science is just like a stinking religion too!!!

Scientists refuse to deal with the giant skeletons found on this earth, plus human remains found that date back 3 million years. Science, refuses to deal with our ESP, our reincarnation too.

You're both all wet! You can't breed a dog to another dog to get a cow ... it doesn't happen. Some animals & plants were brought here by aliens, some good and some bad aliens, and yes, some evolution did happen here that's how primal man evolved to begin with.

Scientists would have us believe we're just a bunch of chemicals & minerals. And once you die that's it despite all the proof to the contrary of ghosts, and by those who have died and came back, explaining it was just a chemical issue. B.S. the scientific community is just as bad as stupid religion sometimes!

Deal with it ... I'm an equal opportunity offender.

one sojourner

So, well done, Kyle Dickman. Thanks for your inspiring "research."

who's to say that Evolution did not create God...

For those of you that have suggested that denying evolution is limiting God's scope, I submit to you that evolution theory as it is being taught in our schools is effectively denying the very existence of God. EVOLUTIONISTS limit God.

Do not make the same mistake that CD made: evolution is not an all-or-nothing proposition. The two possibilities that CD considered were that adaptation was 1) not happening or 2) adaptation was infinitely possible. The empirical examples that we can observe pretty well prove that adaptation DOES happen, but that animals cannot INFINITELY adapt into different animals. The most that science has been able to do with adapt-and-change experiments is to produce a group of fruit flys, after multiple succesive forced breeding experiments, that will refuse to breed 'original' friut flys. They do, however, REMAIN FRUIT FLYS; and Darwin's finches will allways remain finches. CD's finches will never become Eagles.

Darwinian evolution is a house of cards, frantically being glued together by legalism, intimidation, and by intentionally caused confusion between simple adaptation and varieties of the 'meanings' of evolution. The higher the house of cards becomes, the shakier it is seen to be. Darwinian evolution has allways been a house of cards, and CD himself admitted the frailty of the theory he proposed. Darwinian evolution is built on Charles Lyell's theory of uniformitarianism, which is itself a theory that does not stand hard scrutiny.

Address Lyell's theory as fact and it falls apart like an aspirin crumbling in a glass of water. Without Lyell's theory, CD's house of cards will fall apart no matter how much legal 'glue' is applied. If evolutionists would consider the argument instead of making jokes and calling names they might recognise that their arrogance is getting in the way of rational thought.

Are we nuts? we are trying to discover life on mars and not Know our own species here on earth...... ????

Evolution sure doesn't have enough evidence to back up all it's theories. But i strongly believe it does occur. Evolution takes millions of years, it's not something you'll notice every two seconds. This makes it hard for scientists to track it down, they'll be long gone way before the next evolution happens.

I do believe that the human mind evolves also. The development of thoughts i strongly believe is a part of evolution.

For those that believe evolution is a hoax I have some words that they might wish to consider. Just as hybrid plants are created to make better pest resistant foods that you eat from putting two different seeds together,so too does evolution exist. Its called the theory of "genetic drift" and "gene pooling".This has been proven time and again by even recent DNA studies. By stating its a hoax then are you not limiting the mind and the creativity of your creator that you pray to and believe that you will go to his "Shangrila" when you die. Which also may or MAY NOT EXIST.DO YOU HAVE THE PHYSICAL PROOF THAT IT DOES? Evolution is a proven fact,not a hoax and not a fantasy.Humankind and every species of plant or animal evolves by the adaptation to enviromental influences or they die out like the dinosaurs did because they could not adapt. Something that I wish would happen to you Creationists.

It's funny how those who don't "believe" in evolution due to it's so-called lack of evidence even though there's a mountain of evidence have no problem believing everything their religion preaches to them without a shred of evidence to back any of it up.

Religion is the hoax.

not going through all the riff raft of posts but will comment about evolution,in a case as with natural boundries preventing a natural gene transmission, being cut off and continuing to bread,insested breading will devolup new genectic trates,sure six toes and 3 eyes may be the start but continued breading and time will devolup a new and genticaly changed creature,,, remember folks we talk about time here,
as to the depth of the congo,,,i belive that africa,south america,india,russia and many other places have never been truly exploried, sure in the past english and such raped the lands finding so much but we have a morden explortation way now and have to go back over and over trying to put the peices together,,,,

it is totoaly cool..

discovering of new species... means discovering a new world...

i wish i could be an ichtyologist someday

truly yours..
edzel
^_^

He do not forget that God In his creation, he had created the big fishes and small fishes, next time you will grab another species consult God, he will tell you the date and hour they were created.
Stay Blesseed.

Very interesting comments/opinions about evolution and religion. I am a Catholic so don't get me wrong but, was there ANY evidence that God created the first living creature?? and who wrote the very 1st Bible?? On the other hand, Scientist are doing research to prove evolution. Who invented the word Evolution?? We are all human beings and we believe what we hear, see, smell, and touch. All I know is that ever since I was born I'm one way trip to my death, same for all living things. So have fun while your still breathing.

There are many that have never read the Bible yet they so easily dismiss is significance. How much, if not all, of it is filled with untrue, fable based stories. The book was completed hundreds of years ago, before science entered to either attempt to prove or disprove the book's statements. As it was written hundreds of years ago, the Earth was created round; the stars in the heavens are numerous, that we would continue to find new life on our planet and so forth. How about today's application to life? Life today is EXACTLY how the book said it would be.

Pick up the book and read it, even perhaps with the perspective of disproving it. Dissect it, do research on it, do whatever you would need to do to reach your predetermined theory of it's fiction. Not to ruin the adventure but what you'll find is that there are numerous, PROVEN, events that have occurred and have yet to occur.

We truly are in need of God's guidance through Jesus.

seems to me there are plenty arguments to evolution vs creation,I guess is comes down to what one prefers to believe in this very short existance each one of us has here.to chase our so called "tails" or live in a life of promise...quite simple to a proud to be christian such as myself...GOD BLESS

Glad to see that many people agree on something: you can be a christian and still believe in evolution. In my humble opinion God created all things including the concept of evolution. He got things going then watched as they evolved. Why not? Don't be so hard headed people it can go both ways.

Whoever says that evolution is a hoax is also saying that planes and flying is a hoax too. I'm a person that believes in the beautiful powers of God and all of His creation. I'm also a person that believes in evolution. I don't think God was that humanized person that is portrayed on the Bible. When the Bible says that we were created on his own image is the prove that we are humanizing God. God is not human, God is not a person. We humans believe that we are this divine creatures that God created with special features (intelligence) above everything else. We think that us humans are God's favorite creation therefore more important than any other organism on this planet. This is not true. This idea of being superior above everything else, just because we are "smarter", is making us destroy what God created: Planet Earth. The Bible also portrays a very simplistic God that is based on humans only. We didn't come from mud. God is way more than what the bible says. He is more organized and he creates processes to create life. One of these processes is EVOLUTION. When people says that they believe more in a devine creation rather than an evolutionary creation, they are talking about the same thing. What more divine than evolution itself? This beautiful process proves that God exists, and it also proves that God created everything with the same value of importance. We are not superior to anything. We humans are just part of this evolutionary process that God created and everything is connected with everything. We humans have the same right to live on this planet than everything else. From a microbe to the magnificent blue whale, we are all connected, it is a chain that makes us interact with everything else. GOD exists and the prove is EVOLUTION.

In answer to all of these comments, more particularly the debate on Evolution vs. Creationism, may I say a few words? And if someone would like to answer me by email, please do.

I agree with the scientific method as well as ethical values (most of them found also in major religions). I am painfully aware that the following words will not likely influence one who is "memed" with a traditional religion, but I hope that some may be able to hear.

Evolution by natural selection has been proven through the fossil record, through studies of existing species, and through scientific experimentation. The experimental evidence can be studied here: http://news.softpedia.com/news/Experimental-Evidence-for-the-Appearance-of-New-Species-40812.shtml
and also here:
http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Experimental_evolution

In view of this Everest of evidence, and with all due respect to believers in traditional religion, I do not think this is really a debate about evolution or creation. It is rather an issue of reasoning ability or the lack thereof.

Please understand that I am not against religion (which has produced human saviors such as Mahatma Gandhi, Martin Luther King, and Mother Teresa). I am against any unreasoned ideology, especially when it hinders human progress and happiness.
John Billings
Humanist

cool... since when did you guys knew where the river is?
maybe there's still giant-sized fish like in the dinosaur age... hahaha... i'm hoping to see more pictures of those fish...

the anti evolutionists should try and explain the different strains of the flu which appears every year especially the more virulent and killer types.

THIS IS GOOD, JUST TO READ EVERYONES' COMMENTS. ON THE SUBJECT OF NEWLY DISCOVERED SPECIES, YOU CANNOT DISCOVER WHAT IS ALREADY THERE. THE BIBLE STATES' THAT THERE IS NOTHING NEW UNDER THE SUN. MAYBE YOU WEREN'T AWARE OF IT, BUT GOD CREATED THEM LONG BEFORE YOU GOT HERE. DARWIN FOUND THAT THE HUMAN ( EYE ) IS SO COMPLEX THAT IT COULD NEVER HAVED EVOLVED ON ITS OWN. WHAT MAKES IT SO HARD FOR MAN TO ACCEPT THE ( FACT ) THAT GOD CREATED THE EARTH AND EVERYTHING THEREIN.

Who cares, we are all here right now. We need clean air, clean water, equal rights, and jobs for those who want to work. Without these, no theories matter because we won't be around to debate them.

I guess we will all find out the truth when we die!! Until then, let just keep expending all of our energy trying to change every elses opinion on life!" Good luck!!

The fact that god created everything is the real bogus idea! how did he do it? Use clay? haha. Evolution has been practically proven in so many ways, such as fossils, genetic work, and others. Has god ever been proven...hmmmm no! The bible is a story book of mostly fiction that mindless people follow and believe because they cannot decide for themselves. I am a biologist and whatever you want to argue about the "creation theory" I can counter.

Every living life and things are there for all the time and for us to discover it. Lets accept the fact and just do our part as keepers of hte planet.

First, the article is wonderful and I am glad to see more research being done in central Africa. I believe the political climate has hindered exploration there more than say the Amazon Basin. With 2300 species of bony fish in the Amazon River system, there maybe far more species yet to be classified in the Congo and its tributaries. I can't wait to learn more.

As to the evolution arguments going on here, I think our science and our religious world views are coming together rather quickly and people in both camps should be prepared to give up some of their scientific and religious dogma.

At a research facility in Illinois, a serendipitous discovery was made. Nickel crystals suspended in water had a magnetic current introduced and at a specific frequency those crystals began to self organize and move about the container not unlike an organism. What if all physical manifestations of life on Earth represented a specific energetic signature that all the matter that constitutes that life form coalesces around and is its organizing force? Then a planet may also have a specific dominant magnetic signature that creates the life unique to it. Our minds are a part or extension of life. So our minds can and will change over time as that signature changes. Our planet's magnetic signature is changing quickly as it did with the extinction of the dinosaurs. If you allow and embrace the energetic change you will "evolve" if not, your record will be found in the strata a few layers up from Lucy's.

This has evolved into a enormous arguement between Creationism and Evolutin so I would like to state my theory. Before I start however, I believe in God and I also believe that Evolution is possible. So I believe that God created the universe over time (not in 7 days)and created laws and barriers that things must abide by. Examples of this are Gravity, Atom makeup, Chemical balancing so on so on. While creating the Universe he created Earth and how the land is made up. From here he put simple life on it and let it be. One of these laws that we know of as Evolution, evolved over time creating massive varities of organisms. After time he came back created Adam and Eve, wherupon Evolution took place creating different looks and makeup for man as they adapted and evolved to their surrounding environment. I have my belief here but if someone can provide decnt and supported proof of a bettwer theory of how we came to be I will be willing to accept it. tHIS IS ONLY IF YOU CAN PROVE YOUR STATEMENT WITH LOGIC AND FACTS. Thank you for your time

So typical, that all the hypocritical, uneducated religious fanatics want to come in an argue the validity of evolution, when 99.9% of them dont even understand the concept to begin with. Such a sad world we live in. People are brainwashed to think religion makes the world a better place. Perhaps 2000 years ago it did. However, today, it only makes people more ignorant.

Religion and god is nothing more than people calling the earth flat.

evolution = "MAN MAKING A MONKEY OUT OF HIMSELF"

I'm studying Biology at California State University Los Angeles and my prof. said there was much controversy on this subject...If you think evolution is a hoax your a git...there is NO evidence that refutes the theory of evolution and NO evidence that supports Creationism...Religion is not testable therefore it is not science...

scientists cant even tell you what the weather will be like tomorow. So why in the world would i believe we came from monkeys????? if we came from monkeys, wheres the in between species between humans nd monkeys???? wheres it at???? email that to me if you know the answer which im sure no one does.

ar20h@yahoo.com

i do believe natural selection is a facilitator of evolution. while there is a distinction clearly, lets not be so quick to put others down.

oh and youre all debating religion and science and where (if) the two meet on the internet. I dont think this is an effective way of approaching it.

I don't think it is a hoax but I do think to cling to current ideas about evolution so dogmatically as to make it the default explanation for all bio-diversity is pretty narrow-minded.

I'm just saying if you're going to say fish from one side of the river are different thanks to "evolution", leaving creation totally out, how about marine fish species living on adjacent islands in the Caribbean with variation in color pattern? How about the same species of bird in ONE island having different sub-species with very minor visual difference? You'd think after all this evolution through billions! of years they'd be identical by now...

We have not evolved just because we've gotten taller or live longer. The American diet with all the hormones added have certainly helped. There were Scandinavian people who were taller than us many centuries ago. Some animal species actually live longer in captivity due to less exposure to illnesses, and other factors. Both of those are poor arguments to prove species are evolving and probably not what you'd hear from a scientist. The populations of countries like Burkina Faso, where the life expectancy is in the 50's, aren't living any longer.

Calling the Bible "some ancient book" does not diminish its truth one bit. There are historical and geographical accounts of the Bible which are also mentioned by regular history books, way before there were official history books.

On the other hand, saying something occurred "billions of years ago", sounds even less factual if one was comparing it to the "ancient book".

Lastly, implying others are not as intelligent because they don't take evolution as the origin of diversity, is immature, to say the least ;)

I still dont understand why it says in the bible the earth was created 6 thousand years ago. All this talk about evolution is making me confused. Are my professors wrong?

This river does intrest me though.

It goes on to say its the deepest river in the world so i get frustrated when it never tells how deep. I get sick of all these people who think we evolved from bacteria. Reading and understanding gods word is far more interesting than any science or fiction. In the begining god created the heavens and the earth [ the earth was perfect when he created it].After about a billion years the devil was cast out of heaven and to earth ,this is when the earh became destroyed.

I think that the discoveries they are making are fascinating, but I am also a religous man and do not believe in the theory of evolution. I love learning new things like this everyday and I am highly intrigued by the new species they are finding. The fact that we are able to find underwater waterfalls is amazing, correct me if I am wrong but, cant there be many types of fish in the same family that can breed together making a new fish? Which would also mean that there could possibly be no evolution and just new fish made by old fish.

I believe in science as fact.Dont get me wrong,without religion there would be worldwide anarchy.And besides everyones entitled to their own opinion,as long as they dont try and push it on others anyway.But to choose creation over evolution?Well your taking a ride down another river in Africa,Da-Nile. Just my opinion.I could be wrong.

This seems to be a self contradicting statement. How can you tell a person that they are entitled to their own opinion, as long as "they don't try and push it on others"? Aren't you trying to "push" your belief, that people shouldn't push their beliefs on others, onto others? If this is self contradictory, then your statement is necessarily wrong. :)

Facts can be true or false. Facts are different from truths. 1+1=2 is a truth. "Apples are red" is a fact about some (but not all) apples.
Species change over long periods of time. Some species have endured longer than others. The "fact" that keeps me wondering whether evolution is completely understood is that there is such a HUGE diversity of life on our planet. I find it hard to believe that so many different kinds of life exists at the same time. Did they all evolve from the first creature? Has the Earth been around long enough to allow for such diversity?
I am a scientific agnostic who was raised christian. Whether the universe is God or a God exists within the universe, our presense here with all the other life on this planet is awesome and where it all came from is a very Great mystery.
I'm curious about how deep the river is too!

yea the odds of a cell being created out a soup of chemicals are very slim you have to realize it only has to happens once then evolution can go on from there

the odds of a supernatural being constantly controlling and intervening in peoples life and everyday events are even slimmer

god created all things ----true----however mutation does occure over time, for we were created perfect, look at us now. mike

It's sad that so many people are so quick to dismiss evolution who have never picked up a science book, performed an experiment, or in any way educated themselves beyond what someone in a Sunday School class told them, yet can come to a conclusion that evolution cannot exist.

Evolution is not a replacement of God. God is supposed to be omnipotent yet hardline believers insist that God farted out the universe intact only 5000 years ago. God is infinite, yet is limited to snapping his fingers and making fully developed creatures appear. God is Law, but the laws of science that we can see and understand, that support that there is a God, hardline freaks say that laws of science are simply made up.

Recorded history exists over the last 5000 years - which in geological time is not even a half of a heartbeat. No one sees evolution happening because it takes more time than we have recorded our history to occur. The last known related early modern human disappears 50,000 years ago - 10 times longer than our recorded memory spans.

There are not skeletons all nicely lined up showing every step in the evolutionary process because nature is chaos. Animals die, are eaten, decompose, and don't leave fossil records. The records that we have give a snapshot of a species at a single point in time, with only small samplings of the population. Millions of generations can pass before an evolutionary trait has manifested far enough apart to make a difference.

Species change and adapt to their environment to survive - natural selection. When this happens long enough, the changes result in the inability of the group to mate with the unchanged group - evolution.

We are a pitiful spec in geological time - and, in the future, our species will be gone, replaced either by our genetic descendants or by our extinction. I hope that what becomes extinct in humans is an inability to critically examine the world around them because their Sunday School teacher said not to.

I agree with Walter Curl about how without religion, there would be anarchy, but religion isn't for me. I trust science far more than I would trust a book that was written by man during a time when people knew less. I, personally, don't understand why people believe that we can't have morals, values and respect eachother without also having to kneel down and pray to a god who may or may not be there. I was raised christian, but I've lived years without even thinking about religion, and I've had some wonderful years. I just don't "believe". As for evolution, what I've learned of it is good enough for me. I don't know about the whole monkey thing. Maybe past "versions" of us resembled primates but, of course, I'm not a hard core scientist.

It seems obvious that adaptation is real and provable, However, pushing evolution as if it is a fact, is just as bad, if not worse than promoting a religion. I thought scientists were supposed to be open to all ideas until proven correct or incorrect. Pushing your agenda and speaking as if it is a fact, when it is not proven, only makes you look as ignorant as you judge the people who have complete faith in God do to you.

why should argue on this article? everyone has there own beliefs so why dont let them think what they think is right.... just keep believing to yourself and you'll do the same...

Sometimes our beliefs about God mutate and he/she/it/they evolve into a new god. History is replete with examples.

It would seem that both sides are sure the other is wrong. A truely smart person can not say that they are right unless they are God. Is the earth alive because it is growing by converting energy to matter. All green plants convert the suns energy to matter. The earth is gaining in weight and size.?

I have read a comic strip when I was young entitled "Frontiers of Science" and it has the same idea about evolution that the creatures had been developed through millions or even billions of years depending to its environment condition. Too deep ocean or even lake can definitely develop creatures without eyes.

It is believed that all lifeforms on Earth had started from one-celled earthling such as bacteria which is susceptible to heat. It started out from hot water which now we considered oceans, seas, and lakes. Some creatures crawled to the ground and created its habitat and through years in time it became plants, birds, apes, and humans as per Darwin's Theory.

In my point of view I believe God was behind of all these things.Sometimes it is hard to imagine without concrete scientific evidence but we must bear in mind that the true definition of faith comes from our strong believe of existence without scientific basis. There are some atheist scientists that now believe in God although this issue is off topic but I would like to stress out that there might be a division of Science and Faith.

Reference : http://topicstream[dot]blogspot[dot]com

I find it very interesting that people can say, with such conviction, that the Bible is truth! IT'S A BOOK! I'm happy that you have something to believe in, something that makes u feel better about life but don't tell people that things that have been scientifically proven are lies. Especially when we have "PROOF" over your "FICTION!" But maybe u need a little green man to knock on ur door for u to finally realize the "TRUTH!" LOL

I have always been interested in these topics. If God created everything, whose to say that the original spiecies that was created is anything like what we know today? It's entirely possible that evolution became a process after creation.For instance, where did the primates come from-the fish? Where did the fish come from- the algae-which came from the gases which came from where? And the leg bone is connected to the hip bone and so on.................! It's a subject that will be debated untill the end of time, but this makes the most sense to me.

I am only a highschool student and i would like someone who has explained it in this way to explain to me how when an animals dna is mutated (which i know rarely happens and there are countless numbers of mutations that can occur) how is it then that a breeding population could occur with the exact same mutations? It seems to me to take much more faith to believe in this than it does to believe in creation.

The elements carbon hydrogen and oxygen have the ability to combine in almost an endless combination of complex molecules. All life is composed of these 3 elements so its easy to see that change is always and always will be a part of all living things.

god create evolution?nonsense!theory of evolution can be certified by the article.just because species have to adapt to the situation ,adjust themselves to accomodate to the environment ,and this phennoment be named the theory of evolution! It's not the god made !

It talks about how deep the river is but doesnnt say how deep . How in the world do all these people think they are smarter than god. We humans donnt have infinite knowledge and cannnt understand all things. Gods word tells us many things. I see these commenters add or take away from gods word as if they think they know more than god.

It seems more than a little dumbfounding that "real scientists" who are working their way toward trying to understand the authentic 'miracles' of life and existence are shouted down by religious fanatics who can only offer the "proof" of an ancient transcript no one can accurately interpret from the original language, translated by monotheistic, male-dominated theologians, re-translated by every religious spokesperson with an axe to grind or visions of grandeur regarding a personal better-mousetrap for the God-equation. Churches, candles, and pretty gold crosses are not "proof" of the existence of god. All the fantasies one can conjure are not "proof". The Goddess is at our feet, and She is the natural wonder of all things created, and all that lives. And if we don't start paying attention to "earth-heaven" instead of putting faith in someone who isn't going to show-up when environmental push comes to civilization shove, then we don't deserve that missing 'quirk' which caused us to make the separation from other primates. Think about it hard! Does it make more 'realistic' sense that an omnipotent 'something' created and monitors all this...or that an extraterrestrial scientist screwed a monkey? And does it really matter since it would appear neither of them are coming back to "rescue" us from our own stupidity. Scientific methodology may have its flaws, but its preferable to all those "mysterious ways" that never seem to get explained! ...and god punished Adam and Eve because they ate the fruit from the tree of knowledge!
Why? Because stupid people are more easily controlled...and isn't "control" what those in 'power' had in mind when they 'interpreted' the words of their god?
Its time to grow up and take responsibility for our own actions and our own 'realities'.

For all of you creationists, see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a15KgyXBX24

Hold up people!
Why is everyone talking about evolution?
and what's going on with the title?
do you guys really think that Evolution make sense?

did it ever occur to you that we as human LOVE to make up stories and force to believe in that?

I Strongly believe that evolutionary is just a make up story.

I really cannot see how evolutionary make sense whatsoever in any way.

People try to ignore the truth but make up our own law to make our life so easy.

OK...If that is a deal then,,,,how are we here at first place??

please think about that before make any assumptions.

Do make sure about one thing: we are about to proof that evolution is just no good no more , pretty soon.

all the commemts ive just seen are all complex parts of learning, and in the process of evolution feeding our minds to start understanding...WHO REALLY ARE WE??

Evolution IS God. What do you think? That some big guy sitting in a cloud formed all the animals in history out of play doh one sunny day in the clouds?

The tragedy is that all things in nature are God or whatever you want to call God, Mother Earth, etc.

Try to see past the dogma.

Why can't God and Evolution both exist?Even in the short recorded human history people have physically changed(grown taller,changed pigmentation,different hair growth etc.).Now mentally a lot of us are as small as we were thousands of years ago but if that doesn't prove mutation and evolution,I don't know what does.It does not mean that there isn't an intelligent being or force behind the creation of the overall system though.I believe that there is much more we as humans don't know than there is collective knowledge between us.I think everything and everyone has a purpose and an intrinsic connection to all other things but I don't profess to know more than that.

Following my perusing of all of the comments above, it is amazing the amount of illiterate people that infiltrate the public with their unfounded opinions and type with the absence of spell-check.

God is evolution and evolution is God

Interesting dialogue! My grandmother once found a baby catfish swimming in a hollow log after a rain in the middle of the Ozark mountains. Whether by bird or tornado, that fish got there and we cannot prove or disprove it's journey or whether Nature or God orchestrated it's journey. Never underestimate how miniscule our knowledge is in the light of an endless universe and keep your options wide open. One more thought to the Pagan world...when a Christian dies, if he was wrong about God, he will never know...if a non believer is wrong, he will eternally be in regret.
Knife

I believe that a reasonably educated Christian can grasp the idea that God created everything, but designed it with the ability to evolve out of necessity. Science is, in high percentage, a continuous study of all that is detectible by humans. Faith is based on believing what can't be scientifically proven, while science isn't always solid knowlege either. Science repeatedly gives us new research to update what we thought was "fact" before. The general population either puts faith in God, or faith in science, but not a full knowlege either way.

i believe in God & i believe in evolution. Evolution like freedom and change is from God. God didn't create robots that needs to be manipulated to change. Evolution is part of nature. Evrything around us evolves tho most happens for thousands, millions or more years. What is sad is that there are Christians who don't believe in evolution and there are those who do believe in evolution yet don't believe in God. Just my opinion which i firmly believe...both do exist and everything happens because God will it.

God Created us according to his image.... we are all GODS amazing creatures humans are the best among his creatures... so lets keep it that way we're not been from anyhting else... we're all from GOD.. so stop arguing with the article of evolution anyone has their own right to do what they want to do. they want to prove something so let them be....

I think that it is absolutly rediculous to discount god as a part of evolution in my mind god is a scientist think about how you watch lesser organism's live there lives the wonder that you feel and have you ever thought this animal would do better if it had ... science is the explination in mans term for the ultimate wonder of god we have to blame catholisism for the seperation of religion and science think how far we could have gone if not for the dark ages god wants you to be smart to learn he lives thru us in us around us god is not the anthropomorphic old man siting in a cloud he is the cloud he is the earth he is all things

ASHEVILLE

as intelligent as we all like to think we are, all we really know is fear. Evolutionists worst nightmare is that Creationists might be right and vice-versa. We try to stem beliefs from ideas, but where do ideas come from? All we should really believe in is people. Noone here is willing to die for these beliefs, and yes evolution is a belief, if wasn't how could you believe it? My beliefs are what i know in my heart is true not what someone has told me or shown me. The real question isn't a matter of science or faith but rather:

Why are the most destructive beings on the planet so afraid of death?

god is a "hoax" hasn't anyone thought about it? god is the creation of man to keep from insanity by filling in all of the blank spots with "somebody must've done it."

Religion was created by simple minds and is still being pushed by simple minds, it has only been around a couple thousands years, yet species (which continue to change) have been around 140 million years on this planet, long before any human thought up the crazy notion that there is a creator...Time will prove them wrong or they will kill themselves fighting over such a ridiculous notions...They are scared of eternity so they hide behind a dream...When you die, you decompose, there is no special place called heaven...LOL

you guys just shouldn't even waste your time trying to explain anything to these people. it's pretty clear that they cannot even fathom to what extent they just. don't. get it.

besides, is it really important anyway? remember 1000 years ago how NO ONE got ANYTHING? science is new--brand new--by even the briefest non-personal measures of time. obviously there are going to be stragglers over the course of everyone getting on board. the good news is, in a few hundred years, they will be all but gone, and people will have found entirely new ways to be foolish. so for now, maybe we should just let them be.

I BELIEVE THAT FISH AND OCEAN CREATURES DO EVOLVE IN TO OTHER THINGS. I JUST DON'T BUY INTO THE WHOLE EVOLUYTION THEORY.. I'M SORRY BUT I WAS MADE IN GODS IMAGE! I DID NOT COME FROM SLIME OR SCUM!!! NOR DID I COME FROM A MONKEY OR AN ORANGUTAN!! KAT

I believe in G-d AND I believe in evolution!!!!!! You don't have to be strictly one or the other. G-d intended for evolution to exist so that what he created could adapt to its environment as it changed and needed. Fundamentalists... GROW UP!!!!! Don't make the rest of us G-d loving evolutionists look bad!

I believe that God created everything and his layout of creation is very deliberate in Genesis - now saying that I say this - God is amazing! I believe if he can split an atom then he created us to evolve to survive! I believe that the animals that have evolved to create Darwin's theory just prove the brilliance of God! His creation is so amazing that it can adapt to its needs to survive!! God sees all and knew what each of his creations would face so he created the ability in each one to change to survive. This is adaptation not evolution!

And who created this god, man...

i cant believe that some super religious people get all defensive at the idea of evolution! ther are so many possiblilities out there we dont really know what's what! what i would like to know is who wrote the bible and said this is the only thing that is true??? yea i know there's all those stories about the miracles of "God" but you never really know what is true because theyr not primary souces!! theyr just stories! what i think is that ther's some kind-of coexistance going on here. so why are we as humans soooo obsessed with the idea of where we come from? we'll never really know!! so why cant we just be satisfied that we'r here on the earth and nothing will change that unless we let it! get over the religious part of life people!! it will consume u!! now i have nothing against religious people, its just why cant people accept the facts when theyr in plain sight??! yall r missin the piont; WE WILL NEVER KNOW WHICH "THEORY" IS THE CORRECT ONE!! and the fact we have to argue about it is very very very STUPID!!

I must to say to all of us, give THANKS TO GOD, he created all this things for us. This things he created for us need to care no matter how, what and for.no need explanation from anybody, god can explain it. we cannot question him. we need to protect and take care all this things.
GOD bless us all.

To the evolution "nay sayers", why not take a course in genetics and then the principals of evolution? in that sequence.A genetics course would enlighten you as to all the different ways genes can and do change: recombination, mutation, simple pairing mistakes in D.N.A. genetic drift,selection factors that change gene frequency in populations,etc,etc. Then an evolution course could show you how organisms can and do change over time. The fossil evidence for evolution is overwhelming and the evidence grows every day. the fossil evidence for human evolution is doing the same. After you are exposed to these two courses and understand these principals and still refute evolution as a natural process in all living things then you are either dishonest with yourself or your stupid.

God created evolution. Human evolution created God.

They did mention how deep - "The current just beneath the surface is traveling at 30 miles per hour, and the channel is 640 feet deep."

I believe in evolution AND the Bible - and there's no conflict in my mind. The former is based on logic and the latter on faith. It is possible for the two to exist in one human being! Are we not a combination of physical, mental, psychological and spiritual beings? I submit that to deny any one element is to not be living fully.

I also think a lot of the Scripture is metaphorical - a way to explain in simplicity to the peoples of that time, what the prophets and enlightened ones (or whatever name you want to pick) saw as life and the universe unfolding (or evolving) and how to navigate through it.

I read somewhere that we use only a tenth of our dna capabilities -- that's a huge window of opportunity for evolution. Walking on water anyone? Isn't that what the Bible is a map for?

Hopefully, we humans will evolve to the point that we use our full selves to be of use to one another and live joyously and peacefully.

btw, I'm Catholic and loving it! Also love quantum physics.

u crazy people.it all comes down to one question.how did it all start?from some "big bang"?that sounds like another saying for "let there be light".the bottom line is something cant come from nothing.you "evilutionists" need to just accept that.

At what point in time did God begin to exist? If there is no God, then how was the universe born? The chicken and the egg, my friends. Peace.

How does anyone know the either evolution or god is a hoax. we may not change informatively but animals and humans change structurly and stimulously. how do we even know there is a god except by religious outlets and bible information. and if evolution is a hoax then how do species as such evolve physically,mentally,emotionally and structure in different forms. do realise that we cannot note as many changes or study because so many species are killed off quicker then u can say boo through human activity and occasional conflicted conrfrontations over land or territory ( or to some just cruel and selfish motives such as animal fur farming or poaching ). can anyone really explain human and animal life form? will researchers ever break the barrier resolving life? why dont we wait and see in the meantime routine our easily manufactered lifestyles. we may be wiped out in a 100 yrs.

We evolved from primates. The reason that certain monkies are still monkeys is because our jaw muscles shrank because of a mutation, allowing our skull to expand, and,so, our brain.

awesome...

Surely only the next few or recent posters, together with the author, would waste such time as to read my comment. I'd hope only the author would ever read all of them. If you've read all of the comments by 11/10/2009, email me.

this is rather interesting. if i didnt know any better, i would say that this thing is a cryptid- an animal who has not been scientfically to exist- who has lived from the dinosaur times.

I saw a comment saying "they proved we didnt evolve from primates" dont you remember a few months ago they found a fossilized skeleton of a primate thats closer to our genetics then anything we've found yet. The scientists said it's the closest they found to our ancestors. Evolutions is real. Creatures evolve to cope with the everchanging earth. Doesnt anyone remember seeing that babies that are being born today are a degree warmer then usual. They said it could be from global warming and that we may be on our way to changing or "evolving" to cope with earth years and years from now to withstand the temperature change. On another note theres nothing wrong with christianity, its the people that believe in it. Many are very judgemental and feel the need to preach which, in fact, is something Jesus frowned upon. I am not religious but i am not ignorant to not only christianity but many other religions. And i have seen and heard with my own eyes and ears that many christians are not accepting. At all. And thats a big part of the religion. So for those of you that think when you go to be judged by Saint Peter that you will be praised for your faith will have another thing coming to you. I know a little off topic but alot of people are bringing religion into this which is not needed. Science can prove things religion cant. Religion makes you believe in theories. Science meerly takes a theory and tries to make it fact by looking into something deeper rather then just saying "yep i read it, its true, no questions asked"

definition of evolution- a process of continuous change from a lower, simpler, or worse to a higher, more complex or better state. Now tell me if there is no such thing as evolution do you think humans were just made this intelligent and just knew how to survive, or did we gee i dunno evolve from thousands of years of experience and knowledge and learn how to adapt and better our environment... oh wait God must have done it all we should give him all the credit for everything that happens on this planet. Has anyone actually seen God? And if this world started with only one male and one female we must all be related too right? Its a very debatable subject that we could argue for centuries about im sure.

Hey Evolutionists, Did you know that there is truth in the song - Did Charlie make a monkey out of you..Don't you think you should be living in the zoo. Evolution has been and always be a theory no matter what kind of proofs the media or the scientists concoct. Thank God for the Bible and read it. It tells us where you begin and where you end up..Dont believe Charlie's lie and end up in the wrong place. Even Charles Darwin repented on his deathbed and turned to the creator of the universe for his salvation. It is never too late for anyone who repents and turns to the loving God who forgives all of your sins. How could you respond with hate for love towards the only God and all his people who love you. How can you call yourselves liberated? You can only be set free by trusting the loving God who sent Jesus to save you from your sins. Have you really been liberated or did Charlie make a monkey out of you?

600 years ago it was scientifically accepted that the world was flat. 200 years ago it was scientfically accepted to bleed a person for almost any illness. 100 years ago it was scientifically accepted to use radioactive material in elixers for the the common cold. It's amazing how smart all these guys thinks they are. Lets wait another 100 yrs to find out how ignorant we all are!!!! No matter how good the theories sound no one has ever proven evolution. When you insult someone who does not believe in evolution by calling them a Christian you sound just as ignorant as you are trying to make them out to be!!!!!

I agree, you should stop believing in anything science has to offer and stop using the products of science; especially medical science. You haven't died of smallpox or polio because Jesus has blessed you. And if you get cancer I totally encourage you to avoid medical doctors completely and don't undergo treatments of any sort. I recommend prayer. Lot's of prayer.

I'll premise this by saying that I attended catholic school thru the 8th grade, so hopefully you can take that as meaning I'm not anti religious.
I just want to know why so many who doubt the theory of evolution would flock to a site like this. Was the word spread thru your church groups to hit the boards here and knock down anything which you have'nt read in the bible or heard in a sermon. There is nothing wrong with faith, its a wonderful thing to turn to in times of need and despair and to give you hope that there is something out there beyond this world when your time comes. It has and will always remain a way to try and make people do good by putting fear into their heads.
With that being said, there does come a time though to try and expand your minds. You cannot always remain blind and obtuse to certain proven facts or new findings such as fossils, etc..

Interestingly enough! According to the Islamic Holy book the "Quran" God has created everything through the process of evolution.

If a species was just discovered recently, that doesn't mean it has evolved from something else, it just means people haven't found it yet. Also, I think some people have a wrong impression of God and Christianity. Us "closed minded Bible thumpers" a Jerry so elequently put it, believe that God created everything and nothing on this Earth happens out of His control. He created everything for Himself, so if there are several different species of catfish, He made them that way. If they've evolved over "millions" of years, that was His will as well. Just because some people have a different way of explaining something outside of the realm of science doesn't make them narrow minded. Those who sit and critisize without truely experiencing are narrow minded. If you don't believe in God, fine, but don't be insulting to those who do because it only makes you look ignorant.

640 feet was the deepest number I remember. Here it is--That night, Gardiner plugs a data card in his laptop. Winged insects flock to the glowing screen, their buzzing mostly drowned out by the steady drone of the river and the occasional whoosh of its surge breaking on the beach. The computer hums while processing data. Eventually Gardiner pulls up a graph profiling the river’s bed. It looks like a U—as smooth as a mountain valley carved by a glacier. The current just beneath the surface is traveling at 30 miles per hour, and the channel is 640 feet deep.

“That’s the deepest point measured on a river in the world,” Gardiner says. “There’s no question about that.”

There you go! --Rich--

"whereas science actively searches for present evidence."

The problem is it is searching for evidence of preconceived notions. Scientists shouldn't search for evidence they should find it then see what the evidence points to. If science is used correctly it is observation and testing, tp draw conclusions(rather than observation and testing to prove conclusions..)

I'm going to take this story as it comes, right now it is awesome that they have found so many different types of the same fishes, fish are amazing.

my question is where did everything come from.

if you believe in god where did god come from if he created everything what created him. can something come from nothing.

if you believe in science where did all the atoms and elements come from did they just appear has everything just always been here. ex the big bang theaory a tiny mass with lots of energy exploding and spreading across the universe where did that energy come from. how can we have something from nothing and can there be nothing.

All it takes is the "word" Evolution to take a perfectly agreeable blog and turn it into a rant session. Can't you people take a moment to consider that believing in evolution does not preclude a belief in God, I prefer to believe that God created the spark that is life and then left it to define it's own growth pattern and development on the planet. I know a lot of you want to think that there is an omnipotent being watching everything you do but I would suggest that you consider how unlikely that really is and look to yourselves to take care of business. Evolution is not a dirty word and God (blessedly)made some people into Scientists.Blessed them with insatiable curiosity and set them to the work of caring for mankind and discovering the infinite secrets of this amazing world.

what about the ancient astronauts and there influence on the course of human history. we are like insects intellectuly in even primary comprehensions of this universe (one song). this is why so many of us christians find the faith the greatest truth yet spoken.

explain evolution. explain how carbon dating is real. explain how we "know" that the earth is hundreds of millions of years old. evolution is a theory. unlike gravity. the statement "the apple doesn't fall far from the tree" is a true statement, because compare us our planet to the moon for example. if we didn't have gravity, we would not be able to stand flat on the ground. and the growth of todays humans could be due to human made substances, (e.g., hormones in cows could eventually cause an unusual growth in humans.) just think about it. evolution has many "holes" if you will...even the "big bang" theory has it's holes.

"Evolution is NOT RIGHT!!! God created the earth and he created everything that there is in this world. Animals did not evolve over all those years. They have always been there."

Posted by Garrett Smith on November 7,2009 | 08:35AM

If God created the earth and everything there is in this world, why were we (humans) able to create 'toy' and 'miniature' dogs? Why were we able to make smaller animals? Because we bred them that way. God may have assisted in creating them, but if humans hadn't gotten involved, we would still only have poodles. No 'toy' sized poodles! Evolution does exist. Just open your mind and stop being so ignorant! This goes for everyone who said evolution isn't real.

How this degenerated into an evolution vs. creation argument, I fail to understand.
What I do understand is that the creationists I read here have to claim that they know how God does things. A claim I more than doubt.
Also, scripture informs us that God lives in a different state of time than we do.
I know of nothing that precludes God from creating through evolution over time.

I do not see why it is always a fight between Creation and Evo. The bible says that we were created in "HIS" (used loosely I am sure) image, but it does not say what that is. Is it physical image of GOD, or a spritual one. Everything had to be started by something, but it has to runs it own course too.

Evolution??? Ummmmmm. You people who believe that trash really are slow aren't you?! I also have a monkey that is part monkey, zebra, elephant, cyclops with one eye in my garage to sell you. He evolved from saw dust and throw up. That is about how much sense this junk makes. Do you people not realize how impossible it is to evolve? How would you have lungs to breath, a heartbeat, a immune system so perfectly created to protect us from all these diseases, a circulatory system, that supplies us with oxygen and blood to every cell in our body, DNA that we can't even begin to fully understand? If you just look at all that it takes to "Evolve" it literally is impossible! Nothing would exist on this planet. Everything would be defective and die off before it could even begin this sorry excuse of a process for creation of what God has given us on this planet. So stop removing GOD from His CREATION. It is like me telling you, you had no part of your child's existence. You get no participation grade for your child existing here. Get Over It. God Created US, This Planet, The Animals, And Everything You See. Like I said I have a monkey in my Garage with one eye to sell you if you believe in Evolution. Goodnight folks, God Help America.

Darwin himself called evolution a theroy. Theroy is not fact; it's a hypothesis.
Discovering 'new' species is not factual support in favor of evolution. It merely proves that science is probbing farther, wider and deeper than it has before thanks to technology and funded expeditions. Most logically, it's a 'new to you' species.
Science will never discover all the facts of life. God is that awesome. Does a man dare to think he can rise above? Be careful, the bible says, "God resists the proud one..." James 4:6, The Holy Bible.

Okay; All of you "evolution is a hoax" proponents are right.
You convinced me.
Who else but "Neanderthals" would make such an asinine statement!

I can't believe how many people openly admit they think there is no God. Why are there so many places of worship (across the world)? What about the Holy war? Darwin came to be in the 1850's, God has been here since day one and THERE IS documented proof.....THE BIBLE!!! If you cannot accept this, I am sorry, you are lost. I am very inerested in science, but I will never let it change a known fact: Jesus died for everybody, not just the "bible thumpers".

I was wondering if anyone could explain how such a vast number of different species could elvolve from a single celled organizm.There are so many different bodily systems that work together to give life how could it happen just by chance. Their is no telling how many times the earth has been renewed and given a different chance at life or how many times all life has been destroyed . And for anyones information it is stated in the bible that life was to replenished, you cant replenish anything if there wasnt anything there in the first place.

Interesting pictures

How did this come down to religious debates? From what I can tell the article is refering to a possibilty of unknown species living in this river. At NO point did it say anything about God. If the religious folk can't stop talking about this man for a second then maybe they shouldn't comment at all. As for those idiots who say that evolution is a hoax or just a theory well so is God. You say that we weren't there to see evolution take place but we werent there to see God (nor Jesus for that matter). The bible could have been written by people he sought an explaination for how the earth and they came to be. Just like the Greek and their mythology. It cannot be proven! The bible isn't proof just like a greek mythology book doesn't prove that Helios is truly a man in the sky who jumps on a chariot and flys across as the sun. It is all MYTHOLOGY! You could write that we were all abducted by aliens right now on a scrap piece of paper and in thousands of years people will find it and believe. Do you see the stupidity? But evolution, adaptation, and gravity is FACT because it can be proven in many ways. You could prove it yourself if you had the means and money to do it. Even so some wouldn't want to change their ignorant lives which is truly the worst part. And that is what I believe.

Nothing will ever change the facts for me.. God created man!! We didn't evolve from anything!! Without faith this world would be a really though place to be for me! Reading all these posts and seeing just how many people have No Respect for God and the Bible makes me very sad!! But, the way this old world changes with every generation is a sad state of affair as well!

This article was very interesting. And i believe in God and science. Arguing doesnt make any sense. I agree with ALL of you. It is better to understand both outlooks so you dont have argue. Learning new things is fun =D

you know thats whats wrong now people wont leave well alone .......humans have screwed up more evolution theories.......and why is it you have to go probe something that we know all you want to do is kill probe and destroy things that you dont understand ....WOW FIND SOMETHING NEW THE CATCH AND KILL,,,glad i am not a rare breed.............................

"I don't agree that evolution is a hoax. I think the Smithsonian probably has a collection of dolphin skeletons going back hundreds of thousands of years that will show the process of change in location of their nostrils and shapes and locations of fins. We want to believe that DNA can't change drastically over time, but there's enough good evidence like that to suggest that it isn't a hoax. I'm not exactly a creationist, but for those who are I'd allow for the possibility of "instantaneous creation" also. With different membranes in the universe being touted in modern physics it may be that putting a pattern in one membrane will cause matter to follow that pattern in the physical world in which we live. Given the number of ways that people build houses why should we expect there to be just one way for life-forms to be created by God or the universe?"

Posted by Keith Wellman on November 5,2009 | 04:06PM

WAIT WAIT WAIT, SO WHAT YOU'RE TELLING ME, SCIENTIST, IS THAT YOU THINK THAT A GIANT EXPLOSION WILL BUILD A HOUSE, OR CREATE LIFE. WOW, WHO WOULD OF THOUGHT THAT BY POSSIBLY DETONATING A NUKE THAT WE COULD CREATE LIFE THAT WAY. AWSOME. NOW, SOME FOOD FOR THOUGHT, WHAT DOES IT TAKE TO MAKE A HOUSE REGARDLESS OF THE WAY IT IS DONE. BRAINS,KNOW HOW,TOOLS, EVEN IF I WERE TO PUT EVERY PIECE OF EQUIPMENT, TOOLS, LUMBER, SCREWS ECT. DO YOU REALLY THINK THAT AN EXPLOSION IS GOING TO PUT THAT ALL TOGETHER?.... WOW WHAT A CONCEPT. BY THE WAY, I KNOW MY SPELLING AND GRAMMER IS NOT THE BEST, BUT THAT DOESN'T TAKE AWAY FROM THE FACTS THAT I JUST LAID OUT.

To have evolution you first must have creation. Take good look aruond you. A car,plane,tv,computer and the list goes on. All of intelligent design and evolveing. These creation are of a creator whom is made in the image of those who created him and all of the other life on earth. They surely new thier creation would evolve by what ever means nessary. One day to our creator is a thousand years to us.

This is so stupid!!! Next thing you know all you religous people will say that the sun is a big light bulb and not a ball of fiery hot atoms and swirling gases.
I mean seriously !?.....!?!?!? it's always funny how the people who believe in a thing that cannot be proven, are so quick to point out that theories and facts ,are the spawn of satan and utter heresy! What's next? saying numbers are really letters?

It is interesting that in order to explain an evolutionary fact (DH) that theories must be intertained. Also the belief that the dolphins may have evolved because of the past dolphins nostrils, fins, etcetera are located slightly askew of the dolphins of today. With the terrible knowledge that certain species are becoming extinct daily I would inject that the species of dolphin on display at the Smithsonian may have died off while the dolphins that we see today still existed during that same time. I know there is a possibility that the species of today have not been found in the same rock stratum as the old...but maybe you have not found the right rock yet. GOD has a lot to say about that in HIS WORD.

And evolution is smart enough to produce the genetic code that even to this day of super computers, still scientiest are still trying to map the human genome. How can anybody believe in evolution when the imprint of God is in every creation? I am human, created in the image of God; anyone who believes they came from a chimpanzee - let them be.

Well saying this that a new species is born is not the right word here, rather it is the same species which the scientist have discovered today. These fish like creatures are in the same water for centuries but the human reached them today is the right answer. So better it is to correct the using of words here please.

Evolution is a theory, not a fact. Scientists did a test using flies to see how changing their genetic code would affect them. There were flies with curled wings, making them only able to fly is circles, others with overly small wings, making them limited, and others with no wings at all. Suffice to say, all the flies were worse off. Just like EVERYTHING else that mutates. Never has there been a benificial mutation. I beleive that would be adaptation, and that only goes so far. Evolution is based on circular reasoning. 'We determine the age of the fossils by their location on the geologic column, and determine the age of the layers of the geologic column with what type of fossils are found in them, or 'index fossils'. ' Yeah, sure.
Evolution is just as much of a relegion as Christianity.
Personally, I like to think that I was created by an omnipotent God, rather than coming from a rock.
That's what evolution states.
"It rained on the rocks for millions of years, and created a pre-biotic 'soup' from which all life originated.' Sure thing. Could I get fries with that?
Read up on your facts, you'll learn that evolution is not reasonable, and leaves much to explain, and is self-defeating. Kinda like American grammar: i before e except after c. Oh yeah? 'Science' Abraham Lincoln (God rest his soul) once said: science cannot answer a question without producing ten more.
Don't be apathetic, and learn about this stuff.
And one more thing, please, don't think that every anti-evolutionary is a loud mouthed 'Bible thumper', cause not all are. Be human and be rational, and please don't blam me for something some other person shouts.
But then again, I guess I'm put in the pool with the rest of the Christians and am deemed to be just like all the rest.
It's okay, I like this pool.
I would rather live my life thinking there is a God and come to find out that there isn't rather than thinking there isn't and find out that there is.

EVERYONE - TAKE A GANDER.....
Interestng book on the subjects of evolution and creationism - "The Science of God" by Gerald L Schroeder - 1997 - Broadway Pub. - He's a theologan with degrees from MIT. Yes - both can exisit and in fact help in proving each other. ....why cans't we all just git along?....

its a shame that people on both sides god and science can't see that both can be right...yes it says that god created us in his own image, and it took so many days to create every thing but is gods day the same in what we consider a day or is it a few billion years..i for one haven't had a one to one discussion with god...guess we will find out when we die... anyway the article was interesting and so was the comments lol

Carla,
I can answer your question.
God is an alien fom outer space and I can prove it, please follow my reasoning:
If you are a "creationist" then you believe in the contents of The Bible. According to the Book of Genesis, God created the Earth and all life on it. If God created the Earth he/she did not come from Earth. By definition it therefore follows that God is an alien from outer space.

Gives you something to think about eh? Of course I can't prove I am right, and truthfully neither can anyone else. Everyone will believe what they want and there is no point in trying tochange their mind as long as they are not hurting anyone else.

Alright. Just for all you god lovers I'm going to settle this once and for all with a few things that no one in their right mind will have an answer for. If you attempt to answer these questions you must base them on facts or your comment is moot.

1) How does the universe get created by some unknown being?

2) If there is a god, and he is all powerful, and created the universe, how come we can see all these stars, planets, galaxies and so on, but no "supreme" being?

3) Have YOU seen this supposed god? (When fully conscious, not dreaming.)

4) Who wrote the bible? Was it god, or a man? (Don't say god told the man to write it unless you can prove it.)

5) In an instance where someone prayed for something and it came true, could there not have been a reason for it coming true other than the assumption that a god did it?

Ask yourself this and think about it. Don't hurt yourself.

Couldn't I write a religious book, make an enormous population believe it, kill a majority of the nonbelievers, and watch my made-up religion flourish? (Based on the population back then, not now, which is much too large to sway, and aside from laws that exist now that would make a "Holy Crusade" incredibly illegal and probably get me imprisoned/killed.)

Btw, I'm not getting into evolution, because, although I wholeheartedly agree with it, there's too much to discuss and I'm not exactly an expert. Hope you guys have fun with this. I imagine I'm going to get a horde of angry comments. I'm going to be so popular..

I could join the above creation/evolution discussion with some really nice arguments, but I won't. I've read all the postings and became quite bored with it. Listen up people: this is a discussion that will keep going one for ages to come, so stop waisting your time with it and do something more usefull. For example, creationists: start working seriously on saving Earth, Gods creation, for the Bible clearly states He wanted you to be a good landlord. He may otherwise put you in hell instead of heaven after you die, since you began the greatest sin: you destroyed His works / stood by when others destroyed them.
And scientific oriented folk: there's plenty of scientific evidence that mankind is screwing up everything that evolution has come up with in millions of years, so start using science and common sense to stop this devestating process.
For both of you: the newly discovered and tremendous interesting species that the above article was all about might otherwise be destroyed during your lifetime or that of you children (not: grandchildren!).

Stop arguing, start acting to preserve what you're arguing about!

It requires courage to say it but do you realize that God could and probably is a hoax!

Okay, folks, let me lay it down for everyone. Evolution must be real, because how did we come to be when there were once only primitive animals? History doesn't simply pop into existence, it builds and builds upon itself. And for everyone who says I hate God, don't beleive in him etc., I am a neopagan Wiccan, I really don't think he created me. The Earth did, on it's own time.

science have been able to prove that there was living creatures millions of years before man with fossils when is religion gonna prove that there is a God

Whether "evolution" is accurate or has accurate information or not, does not, nor ever claims to answer the question: "who started it?"

If you have born witness to the wisdom of G-d you would seek it. (not self and the affirmation of your own opinion)
If not, you are in denial. Wisdom is layed up for the righteous, but judgement and wrath are stored up for the proud of heart and foolish of way.

'The big bag theory has been proven'
First of all, typo, it's 'big bang'. And second, no, it hasn't.
'I won't believe in a book that some man wrote'
The Bible is a compilation of books that were gathered together over a vast period of time. That's why you say 'in the book of Genisis' or 'book of Psalms', not 'chapter Genisis.'
It is considered prophetic, not self-prophetic, BECAUSE of this fact. Only 'book' in the world with this distinction.
I like reading debates that have intelligent people taking part, not little kids whining about what they think. Just my 'two cents'.

Ok. I am goint to throw something else in this mix. I have ready many of the postings here. There are many opinions. What if God did indeed create man, and evolution? Some of the posts have said this.

To anyone interested: check this out. Look it up in a bible.
We all know the story... God made Adam and Eve and they had children. Cain and Abel got older. Cain got jealous of Abel and murdered him. God sent Cain away to the mountains. He told Cain he would find his mate there.
The bible never mentions a woman. Besides, I doubt God would award a human female to Cain. So I have always believed that Cain's mate was an ape, or ape like primate.

"no one has ever seen evolution occur, that is an animal produce an offspring that is a different species, unable to mate with another offspring of its parent's species."

That is simply not true if a horse mates with a donkey it produces a mule as an offspring and two mules cannot reproduce. In order to make more mules the horse and donkey breeding must happen again.

I beleive that god created man and beast. But I still think that animals can evolve to adjust to their changing surrounding, example crickets and fish in caves have lost their eyes and rattle snakes not so many years ago didnt have rattles and later developed them to warn buffalo and cows from tramping them on the prarie.

I love the article, but do have to add that the level of ignorance has sky rocketed with the comments added by those that don't truly understand the difference between evolution, creationism, and apparently the bible. If you're going to defend creationism, please have a valid arguement. The reasoning one person had was that "..it [the bible} was proven". WRONG!!! It has not been proven. It was written based on someone's account of the events MANY years after it was supposed to have taken place. Don't get me wrong, I love to "believe", but facts are facts and are a little more reliable than a book written by someone who knew someone who had a sister that dated this stable boy that saw.... Anyway, science is science. It is also evolving and so are we! We're not hairy anymore and can speak a fluent language (well some of us). Sorry if I step on anyone's toes here. I'll be in church Tomorrow (Sunday) to repent all of my sin at the southern Baptist church nearby if it makes you fell better. :)

Some of these comments state evolution is a hoax because no one has seen evolution. So how do you know God created everything? Were you there to see it? It's all based on beliefs and opinions no matter which side you take. Let everyone believe what they want to believe. Everyone has their own opinions and they are entitled to them. I'm not saying I don't believe in God, but if we weren't supposed to come up with these scientific ideas and theories, why did he give us the mind to do so?

The congo river as a depth of at leas 230 meters or 750 Ft.

I for one, hope that i live to see the day when they finally figure out what started the universe.(and i don't mean the big bang) i mean the very begining of time itself.
that will be a great day for science indeed

Here is the Truth About Evolution.....NEVER has a species been discovered that evolves to another species. For those dummies out there this means that a monkey may evolve but it is still a monkey, never does a monkey become a man. A moth that evolves is still a moth, but never does it become a bird. God did not design the world for evolution between the species, only for evolution within the species. Please study this fact.

" Anyone ever consider God may have created evolution?
as posted by Greg on (November 7,2009 | 12:07PM) "

that God may have created evolution (too) along with the birds and bees,now that's an interesting thought.

1.) if Evolution can be created as a theory,
then who created the Creator of evolution, Mr Evolution?

2.)if Evolution came from/began with Nothing, what came before nothing, Nothing-nothing?
Ex : Air borne out of Vacuum over the zillion years. OMG, that takes a far-fetch lot of wild imagination to bridge the colossal gap.

May b someday Evolutionists and Creationists can marry and make peace w each other.

It won't harm to muddle the water a bit more with Relatives, if there are no Absolutes in this world. After all, no one can be sure all the time right?

yes this was a very intersting topic now i may be only 16 but if u look at this stuff. u can see that they only found fish what about a giant eel or some dwarf or gigantic crocdile but its is still very amazing with. all the animals they found but there may be many more rare and scary creatures yet to found . for example in japan the giant squid cot on tape or that said to be megaldon cot on tape whicth was acctuly a 6 gilled shark whitch can get extremlly big and if u dont remember in papa nu gunie they found a under ground crater that held a many of unseen mammels and birds but yeah and i dont disaggre with any ones believe so yeah

I'm always amazed at those who refuse to let others have their opinions--which with science, can be backed by facts. Religious folks are taught to be tolerant, but I hardly every see that with fanatics! ha! That was a joke. Seriously, however, tolerance is the godly way to behave, so if you believe in him and every single nonsensical idea about him then you must believe that others have the right to believe in something else, even if it is quite different with out prejudice. Do I have to break out psalms and texts for you? I'm not going to bother looking them up, but you all know the stories; jesus on a cross, mary magdalen as she is told in the bible, the lepers....
I was raised as a catholic and went to private schools. Somehow, those schools taught me that religion, like humans is erred. There are some truths, but they are completely off what most people were brainwashed to be. Christianity was once a beautiful religion until the Kings got a hold of it. Read your history. Question everything. Let reason be your guide and humanity into your heart.

Man cannot answer ANY questions pertaining to God. That's why we have disagreement discord and rebellion. Either you believe or you don't. There will NEVER be scientific or Religious PROOF of anything. MAN WILL NOT ANSWER THE QUESTIONS about GOD. It is better to believe NOW and reap the rewards from God rather than not believe and be a slave to satan for all eternity. I choose to believe what i have been taught my whole life.....just in case. I dont know about all of you. But Im scared to say i dont believe in God. Even though I have never met him. However I have been "lucky" many times in my life.. meaning I am still alive...... I give the glory to the only one i know... GOD!

There has not been one documented case of evolution .
As in one species changing into another . what we see happening in mutations today de evolution were they lose the information that is not necesary or that becomes corupted . this is the case with a lot of organisims . DNA is information just like the software on your computer , and it is the code that tells cells how to operate and form . just like the operateing system on your computer .
So my Question is this even if you have all the right ingrediants in one place necesary for cell formation . Were does the information come frome that tells those ingreidients to form a cell and start functioning ? I will remind you that scientists working in labs have not figured out how to create a living cell yet . And there is no good reliable record of organisim to organisim evolution . Just lots of intraspecies mutations .

Please -- this is an interesting article. Let's talk about it. Let's not dignify the anti-evolution comments. If you respond, it only encourages them to fill up space. Obviously, there is no reasoning with them. Evolution is a theory only in the sense that gravity is a theory. There are not "two sides" to this. Don't argue with these people. If we don't respond, they'll not be encouraged to keep up a dialog. They don't belong in a serious conversation on any topic.

Since man created God does it really matter

All the evidence for evolution exists.
God placed it there to make the scientists crazy.

I think, believing something is true is fine and should be respected by others as an opinion. Now when someone believes something is true based on what they consider to be 'fact' and hates on anothers belief or what someone else believes to be true, that, I believe, is true arrogance. It's only arrogant to think we know just about everything about everythng. Fact is fact but I we haven't come far enough to say 100% how we all came to be. We should still be searching for the truth. Things would also be less complicated if we respected other opinion, fact or not.

Saying that gravity and evolution are both "facts" is quite interesting. Gravity is a force that is invisible but felt by everyone and is very real. Evolution is a theory, not even close to proven. Gravity and God have a lot in common - both invisible but its (His) power is felt by all.

From Andrea Thompson: "That means what we can understand only limitedly the mind of God... because we can not see as He see or understands as He understands."

I've always thought that the Creation story (e.g. God made the world in six days) pretty much paralleled the events in the 4 billion year history of our planet. Like, for example, how the earth and seas were made before the plants, and how the seas were inhabited first before the land, and finally, how Man only appears on the last day. The only problem, however, was the time frame. The Bible says it happened in six days, not billions of years...

Later, I realized that to a being that exists beyond the flow of time, a billion years would probably seem like only a day. It really is all a matter of perspective: to a moth with a lifespan of only a month, humans would probably seem like immortals.

Next, if you agree with me that the Bible is God's word as told to Man, and it was Man that wrote the Bible and not God, then you should also agree that even if God is infallible, Man is certainly not. In other words, even if it was true that God shared the truth about the world to Man, Man's inability to completely comprehend the full scope of God's words (I mean let's face it, the authors of the Bible lived thousands of years ago, so whether or not they were 'enlightened' by Him, they would still relate to the world around them based on their personal past experiences) means that, to compensate for their lack of understanding, they would 'fill in' the portions they couldn't comprehend with terms and ideas that they did understand. (continued...)

... For example, the concept of a billion years would have probably been extremely difficult for someone living thousands of years ago to wrap his head around; in addition, it is highly likely that a term or statement equivalent to 'a billion years' was absent from the tongue spoken by these Bible authors. If it were true that God had spoken to Man about the creation of the world, it is quite possible that to the Bible authors, it seemed like God had created the world in a week, when in fact from the perspective of God what seems like a week actually translates to billions of years to humans.

Just to be clear, it was not God’s fault that the Creation account was and continues to be misunderstood and misinterpreted; the fault lies in Man. It is a fact that Man is inherently a flawed, imperfect being. No matter how many times God blesses and enlightens someone, that person will always be a human, not a god. Being the product of flawed creatures, the Bible is suspect to error as well. I’m not saying that the Bible is just some kind of glorified storybook; I firmly believe there is truth in its pages. However, I wouldn’t call it the “Word of God”; “the word of God according to Man” seems more accurate to me.

To sum up, I believe that the Creation account in the Bible is true, and I also believe that evolution is true. I do not believe that you can only have one or the other; in fact, I believe that to fully comprehend the history of our planet, it is imperative that we all understand that both are two sides of the same coin. Thus this ongoing argument about how evolution is a hoax or how the Bible’s creation account is a myth is really pointless.

I don't think it matters....evolution or creationism as its known in the Bible. The bigger question lies in our existence, the very fact that we are here in the first place.

There is order in this world even through what may seem to be chaos. This order is the framework of our existence which can not be denied (i.e. gravity). Whether our Creator created Earth and its inhabitants as we know them in 7 days or 4.5 billion years is irrelevant.

Our energy should not be focused on discourse but making the World we have been given a better place.

Joe B

I second your comment Greg, Has Anyone Ever Consider God May Have Created Evolution?

Some of you people are so blinded by you're religious beliefs that it's impossible for you to see the truth. Jesus this, Moses that, Abraham hit me with a wiffle-ball bat. You think, "Oh hey, something weird is happening here...must be God". Wake up.

When did this become a war between Christians and aethiests (I think I spelled that wrong).... But since everyone else has spoken thrir opinion, I might as well. Personally I agree with the FACT that God is real, but I'm not trying to push it on people who will never see the truth. I mean, come on. Look at the human body. You can't really tell me that something exploded and BOOM! there was single-celled organisms and we evolved from them. Seriously. I'm not calling you dumb, I just don't see how that makes sense. But you are entitled to your opinion, don't sit here and call people stupid because they have faith in something that can't be seen. I will admit that there are obviously species that have adapted to their particular environment,so I guess I somewhat agree with the evolution theory. After all, God isn't limited. but that doesn't mean that they are evolving into a completely new animal. We kinda look like monkeys, we did not evolve from them.
Also, there was someone on here(sweety47240) who said "Just look at a tree when it is planted and then come back in a few years. It would've changed, and that is evolution " All I have to say is: have you taken any science classes yet? It GREW, not evolved.

I cant believe that this debate against God's creation and scientific fact started just because someone just wanted to share with us what he/she has discovered. I just want to say that Yes I am a believer of God. To me the name God is sacred and should not be used in arguments against science. Sure we have diffrent belifs but that has never stoped us from doing what we do today and I hope that it wont change. And for all the people who wrote and will write bad comments about either God or science just keep them to yourselves.

Evolution can co-exist with Religion. More importantly, if one takes the time to understand the concept that they are against before it is fought, that one would realize that they seriously misunderstand the subject. I have read through many of the comments on this page and some of the biggest misconceptions are.....

Evolution is a theory that revolves around natural selection. The word "theory" does not mean a guess. There is NO debate over if evolution exists, but only over how it occurs.

the theory of Evolution does NOT say that humans evolved from 'apes'. It DOES, however, infer that we share a common ancestor with such.

Evolution IS. If you are able to "disprove" evolution, you don't understand it.

The article is very interesting. Seems to be an example of variation, adaptation, or speciation, but not "evolution" in the sense that new genetic information has been generated. Rather, the species has adapted to it's environment. Amazingly, within the same river, but seemingly "worlds" apart. But to call this "evolution" is baffling.

The comments are both entertaining and saddening.
I don't have all the answers, as we all can say. However, for me...In the beginning God created... Since then, there has been adaptation, mutation, speciation, etc. through division, separation, and loss of genetic information. But there is no evidence that anything has "evolved" by gaining new genetic information into new, higher forms of life.
Could God have used evolution? Yes, but He clearly says that He did it in another way. Does God's creation adapt and change? Yes, but we have no evidence of "evolution" from lower forms to higher forms of genetic information.
The world cannot contain the books that could be written describing the things that we have yet to discover on this Earth. Wonder at it, work to discover it, and understand a little more of it, but most importantly, seek to know the one who who made it.

In evolution there is 6 basic concepts, only one of them is proven and that it micro-evolution(changes within species) so that is the only part of evolution that is trully science. if u think we came from primates u need to learn about evolution. there is a normal human skull dating back 212 million years ago 209.1 million years before the earliest so called "evidence" that we came from primateswas found by the way.

Why is it easy to believe in an almighty invisible super omnipitant being that created all that was, is, and will be, but those same people will not believe that a life form they could see and touch could change

Gee, another fishery we can overfish and destroy! GREAT!
We've killed off everything else.

Does anyone not realize that the bible was written by man? The bible itself is a wild, unprovable theory, wait no, it's almost impossible. The bible was a way to explain purpose and origin in the old days. Same as it is now. I'm not saying i hate the bible, i believe it helps guide people to live a happy, fulfilled life. I do however in a personal opinion dislike the way the bible seems to manipulate children at an early age and shape them to believe it without an uninfluenced will.

I am a confused person!!!!!! I believe in God but I also believe in evolution. Oh dear.

Hey, I am a Muslim and Believe that the evolution is real Greg. But don't think it to be the case for human beings. So I don't go just screaming at science that it's wickedness and ignorance. Because I believe that the science is the knowledge we've obtained and are obtaining through our intellectual power. Which is mostly the citation of observation in a much technical way. And therefore as time passes our search for facts and truth will bring us nearer to the truth.

So in science we can't just assume things unless they're supported by other proven facts. But if not knowing enough true facts is forcing us to make a wrong observation and thus decision. Then it is not fault of the science just over inability. Which over time we do slowly get surpass.

I love religion, because of its reasoning power. Reading Quran just makes me more interested in the science. It's almost like a message to me Like Go explore the laws signs of god that laying out there. In other words to me there are laws that God have created to be discovered.

But with all that it's also said in my religion that all the knowledge that God has, he has only given a tiny drop as would be compare to whole ocean to the whole human race. Also, that if someone start writing about his qualities and all trees in this world become pens and all seas become ink. Then if all pens would get broken, all oceans would dry but his qualities won't even has begun to start.

Myemailum14@ymail.com

Alright people, let's get this straight.

1. You CAN prove evolution. For example: the HIV virus can evolve even within a matter of minutes in response to medications doctors give their afflicted patients, which is why, at this point, we cannot eradicate it. The virus's genetic strands that happen to be immune to certain types of medication are all that are left after the medication in administered, and those genes are the ones that the virus begins to replicate. That would be called EVOLUTION.

2. GOD and EVOLUTION are not opposing opinions. The bible said that, in seven days (which, who said anything about them being seven HUMAN days?) GOD created everything. EVOLUTION is a way to explain HOW he created everything. He could've evolved his creatures over 7 GOD days, which eventually led to us.

Be open-minded. As a Roman Catholic who loves Evolution, I find that there is more truth about God in nature than anywhere else. Evolution is part of nature.

This is for roger & mathew you speak about god and the bible. Do you belive all that you read in the bible? I belive in god but i do not belive in the words written by man that were put in the bible instead of relying on your local church to comfort your life on earth try and use what god give us all. The ability to live and love the beauty of his creations after all we are all equal.

I bet if the people who wrote the Bible could see us argue about this now, they would be having the time of their lives laughing their butts off at their little 'inside joke'.

Anyway, the article, is pretty freaking cool.

Science is aweesomeeeee.

So what proof is there of God? A book written by many people and interpreted by many more of time? Wow, doesn't get more concrete than that.

I find the childish sarcasm and anger behind the well educated evolution people puts them in every bit the ignorant and foolish light that the religious people supposedly do.This thing has been argued non stop forever and never will be resolved by scientific facts.As a believer in God through Jesus Christ I promise there will never be proof of God for people who choose not to allow themselves to believe.As a person that has lived most of his life as an nonbeliever,the biggest obstacle to finding proof of God is religion.Religion is mans attempt at making God into his image rather than the other way around.Many, many self righteous hypocritical "Christians" over the centuries have driven the masses away from Him and into religion or atheism.I gave my life to Jesus Christ one day just asking him if He is real then please show me and use me.All I wanted was truth, not my perception of the truth or anyone elses.I said- if you're there and all powerful then change me into a better person.Theres all kinds of proof in me of His existence.Turning me from being self absorbed,shallow, smoking and alcohol addict,materialistic and totally removed that trash from me and saved me from killing myself which is all I wanted to do in the end. But I can't prove these things to you unless you know me as a friend.This has been His plan from the beginning.Those seeking only proof and not Him will only find evolution and atheism as the only way.

Question so when we travel to distance planets or moons in the future will we adapt, change, or evolve from being in this new different environment for extended periods of time?

So than when we visit Mars or Venus or even our moon for extended periods of time won't we be called Maritians", "Venutians", & "Moon People" due to the change in our new environment?

"......so how deep was the river? I missed it. :("

Frank, it is 640 feet deep.

i want to swim on that river.!!!

God created evolution!

How did these posts evolve from a discussion on deep rivers to a discussion on evolution and christianity? I found the river discussion more interesting. Personally, I believe species do evolve into similar species but God created the infinatelty different original ones. I don't believe that all life came from one cell.

After reading every last comment on this article I have a few observations. The vast majority of the comments lack any reasonably intelligent understanding of the theory of evolution.

I implore anyone who considers posting to this article to at least make an attempt to understand what the theory of evolution entails. It is not a finch turning into a monkey, dog, or cat as some have come to imagine; plain and simple, that would not happen. For those that assume this to be evolution, please refrain from procreation.

Even macro-evolution (creating new species that are incapable of procreating with the existing species) does not mean that one organism will suddenly give birth to a wildly different animal. Although the organisms would be genetically different and incapable of procreating across the different species, there is not reason to assume something as ridiculous as a pig giving birth to a giraffe for example.

I beg of all here to become more informed and understand the arguments being posed before posting a response that is unintelligent and uninformed.

i like the idea...

People who think that evolution isn't how humans became what they are today, also think The Flintstones is a documentary.

How else can one explain why creationist pick and choose truths.

Need heart surgery? Science showed how or do they have their local preacher perform the operation?

It is obvious there are some people who have not evolved to the point of being able to comprehend mans Evolution or the Bibles position as an ancient literary document that suffers greatly when strict dogmatic interpretations are applied.

To all of y'all that believe in Darwin's Theory of Evolution I feel sorry for you. But when you mix a donkey and a horse you get a mule right and they cannot breed with either the horse or the donkey and produce offspring so if there was evolution wouldn't a mule be able to have a mule by a mule eventually ?? and further more There is one Creator we know as God other religious sects than just Christianity, also believe in the one ultimate creator as far back as Native Americans and Other Cultural Tribes across the waters of the world.They may have had a smaller god for seasons and tragedies but they believed in a supreme protector look as Zeus he was the daddy god to all the little ones, same thing. So all y'all so called educated thinkers think a little harder please.

Ya'll Take Care
Cowboy

Okay i just have a question on this whole evelution thing...
If we evolved from monkeys or what the hell ever then please tell me why there are still monkeys? Wouldnt they have all evolved? And if not why are there no half evolved monkeys that arent quit humans yet or why dont we see them evelve after all this time? Exactly my point im not a bible thumper as some of you would or already have said about some people on here but earth an everything on it is a miracle of god we are all created by him. We need to stop trying to come up with other explainations.

wow. the religious nuts need to relax...first off to actually be satisfied by comments like, god created everything and thats it, is extremely close minded. which is why so many people die in the name of their so called god. and evolution is proven time and again. hello? take a look at alligators and crocodiles... they are the closest genetic links to dinosaurs, and have evolved over millions of years of adaptation to survive as long as they have... how about flying squirrels? u think god just thought haha this would be funny... no its an evolutionary trait that allowed the squirrels to gather their food and essentially glide from tree to tree. o but right evolution doesn't really exist right? you know like having 10 or 20 different species yet they are similar because they share a genetic cousin? once again dinosaurs, particularly gallimimus, is pretty much a modern day ostrich. so please stop your close minded ranting about evolution not existing ok because religion is based on a story book that was written by people playing a prehistoric game of telephone where i tell u a story and u tell someone else that story and so on. even if there was some mystical entity of god why does it mean evolution has no part in it? why if there is a god, could it not be possible he made evolution as a means of trial and error to allow life to flourish in different environments? oh and one more PROVEN FACT TO EVOLUTION...try looking at cross breeding of different species.. when u cross breed two different animals that have the same chromosome count and can create offspring u create a completely different animal with a completely different genetic makeup than that of its predecessors. even something as simple as dogs... people cross breed certain breeds to get a new breed all the time today for those designer breeds and toy dog breeds. so please stop spamming anti evolution nonsense because you dont want to admit that your wrong.

Evolution is for those whose minds can handle complex thought. Creationism is for those who can't understand and want to explain things away with the ultimate cop out. It's much easier to say, "God did it and the rest is a mystery," than to have to actually think something through.

...I believe that evolution is real BUT i think God MADE it so evolution is there......im a christian...He is amazing......i've seen more than you guys might ever see...even if im still a lil" lamb

If evolution is a hoax then how how do we become immune to diseases. Some may argue that immunitization is Adaptation, but adaption itself is a fragment of evolution.Is it not true that when the Spanish invaded The Americas that they brought diseases that they are immune to and that the indians died from.In this case the Sanish evolved,in a way, to be immune to the variety of diseases they brought.

HighwaysDelight,
Evolution takes place to be better fit for your ecosystem, in this sense, most primates simply didnt need to evolve, because they were fine how they were.

well in my opinion i don't think research should go this fast, if we go this fast and try to discover everything then in a matter of fact nothing will be left to discover.
This River is a freak of nature, a gift by God so let it be, we shouldn't disturb it! I am always amused to see these beautiful miracles of nature, like this, Hell's Gate, Diamond Valley, etc!

Lets see what becomes of this!

@martin johnson
i think you answered your own question in your statement. you are correct in stating that that landlocked lakes have existed in canada for centuries because they were created when the glaciers receded in the last ice age about 10,000 years ago but....in a lot of locations africa the climate has been consistent for hundreds of thousands of years or even millions so there has almost certainly been enough time for more different variations of species to evolve

Definatly a good read. Always fun to learn about such interesting things.

Even god has evolved through the ages,losing more and more of his power and becoming more and more humanlike .This explains why there are less and less miracles ,more and more disbelievers and more and more scientific discoveries .In no time we would even be able to see god for what he actaully is...

Nice little article.

Too bad the comments devolved into this pointless Theism v. Logic blather.

*evolution vs. creation

Ok, i dont believe in a god, but for the sake of argument. Why cant god and evolution occur? God could have created animals, and those animals either adapt to their enviroment i.e. natural selection, or die off. Wouldn't it be more fun for a god to see what his creations turn into and make themselves off, then a set path?

Why do species that are millions of years old, who are thought to be extinct, never evolve?

I don't believe in god, but for the sake of argument, why can't god and evolution exist? God created the first, and it was either adapt to new features the earth confronted them or die. Wouldn't god if he existed want those beings to change and live rather than stay what he first created them into?

A lot of questions for the evolutionists. First, if evolution is true and the sun burns away millions in tons of weight every day then a million years ago the suns gravitational pole would suck in the earth so fast that all ur monkey grand daddies would fry. Second, if the big bang theory is true then how come planets spin in different directions, and some move faster than others, that is scientifically impossible. Third, how come there is no evidence of a cold blooded animal becoming warm blooded, or half and half, cold and warm, which is impossible?

Why didn't all monkeys evolve as we have? Well, let's see.... Why are there tribes in South America whose largest technological advancement is fire? Some believe in adaptation but not evolution when its the same thing over a period of millions of years. Changes occur that best suit the climate, the predators, the geography and many other factors. I can't disprove religion or creationism, wouldn't try to, but how can the religious/creationist ignore the multitude of fossilized creatures that clearly show a progression of changes across time in so many different species? How can they claim the Earth is so young and dinosaurs roamed with man? When is the last time you saw a cave drawing of man hunting or running from a T-Rex? Intelligent design, although just as possible as anything else, can in no way be proven yet throngs believe based on "faith". Faith really amounts to word of mouth and the willingness to believe. I have to say as far as our true history is concerned, I lean towards tangible proof. The fact that someone wrote a book is in no way proof to me. Just my take, comment as you will.

I am truely sorry that so many people have been sucked in by THEORY of evolution. You see, in science, unless someone was there to have witnessed the act happening, can reproduce the act identically, in the same exact way that they witnessed it, it is called a THEORY. Even creation is a theory, unless you know someone that has been around that long.But what they are talkig about in this article is actually adaptation. All species will adapt to their changing surroundings for continued reproduction and survival. And yes over enough time the genes will actually change, creating what seems to be a new creation. Evolution requires that the oringinal species become extinct and the new takes its place. And by the way, the belief in Evolution and the belief in Creation both take FAITH that the theory is correct. You just better hope that the one YOU'RE believing in comes from the right place.

I think it is wrong to consider all religious people narrow minded. I am a christian but, I am open to everyone's opinion. I believe God is the creator off all...just like any other chritian but, I also believe all living things may have evolved. For example, in the beginning there were no labradoodles...just labs and poodles. I believe that God's creatures mate with creatures that are similar and then there is your new spicies. I'm not wrong.

Mutations make things worse not better. If i choose to believe that God created the universe instead of a piece of dusted that exploded, does that make me crazy. I find it more logical that A supreme God created the universe a few thousand years ago than a piece of dust that just somehow got here created all of this

I have to consider God the creator as being all that exists. God may have been the 'big bang.' and thus created that which exists out of him/her/it's self. Genetic mutation is what allows us to adapt, but it is the acquisition of genetic material which allows for speciation. 'Acquring Genomes' by Lynn Margules and Dorian Sagan would be a good start. God is billions and billions of years old and he's still creating.

It is a wonderful observation that we deal so much on the word "evolution". Just let the nature do its thing freely so that we could have the most out of it for human progress.

I think I'll add one more (slightly less hysterical) voice to the evolution debate. Let me preface by saying I am a Christian. I am also a scholar and a thinker. That said, the only sensical answer I can think of can best be described as "theistic evolution". Similar to the watchmaker theory, it states that God made the world with and upon certain natural rules, the ones we now describe as physics and nature. Mass, gravity, conservation of energy, and yes, evolution. Evolution is the process that allows life to survive and not stagnate. It allows genetic material to be transferred by generations to give traits to offspring that allow them to better survive the world. Sometimes referred to as natural selection, it allows the traits that do not add to a population to be weeded out, and the ones that contribute to the population to thrive. Over time, more members posess many of the traits that have survived, tricking us into thinking in terms of addition of genetic complexity, because new traits are added every generation by way of random mutations. I believe God (or some intelligent designer) created this process along with the other laws of nature in order to keep life running. Regarding humans, the smarter ones survived, and passed intelligence on. The world is still evolving and speciating. Not as fast as we can see it, because the process takes millenia to occur even slightly. And to the Darwinists, read the material. Darwin got a lot wrong. Today, we better understand how evolution works, along with speciation and natural selection, coupled with the discoveries of Mendel, Watson, and Crick. Not that this will shut the debate down, but maybe someone will understand this and possibly think more logically.

I firmly reject evolution but everyone has his/her own decision between Creation and evolution. It is a matter of faith. We can't strongly prove either side with both having evidence and "missing links."

All,

Let us please stop, think for a moment and realize that this article was not written to fuel the neverending argument of evolution/creationism. There are some really cool creatures being "discovered/rediscovered" every day as new areas are explored and/or disrupted by changes to climate/condition. I think we all would be better served in finding out how we can keep them around rather than arguing about where they came from.

Silly Humans.. when will you learn. I hope you evolve soon, for your own sake.

the Niagara river is deeper than that at the base of the Falls.

Is it just me or is it ironic that CHARLES DARWIN HIMSELF recanted the false THEORY of evolution before he died. I love how evolutionists fight with out a leg to stand on.Maybe they dont realize it takes more faith to believe that I, sitting here typing this comment on a full 104 button keyboard,came from an animal swinging in the trees eatin bananas than it takes faith to believe that the CREATOR made me. I love an evolutionists insecurity in their own THEORY. They argue it like it is fake and somebody will find out that it is false and it will all go away. Personally im with the guy who said if things evolve from one thing into another then their past forms would then become non-existant. So if monkeys evolved into humans.........WHY ARE THERE STILL MONKEYS!!!!! :)

What astonishes me is that anyone thinks that faith or belief add anything useful to any idea or understanding of reality. All faith does is confuse things. You either know something or you do not. You can have an opinion about things you do not know, but opinions are not facts. Faith raises opinions and fantasies onto a pedestal and turns them into a religion.

That blind belief leads to inevitable conflicts between religions and with the rest of society. "Our god is the only god!" "Our god is better than your god!" "If you don't believe in our god, you are an infidel and we will kill you!" Sound familiar?

I can tolerate other people being confused enough to want to become a member of some group when the only cost is selling their mental independence by "believing". However, I definitely draw the line at the point where one of them tells me I have to believe their line of faith or they will kill me. At that point they have started a war.

Human "society", to be worthy of the name, must absolutely confront the violent religions by saying a firm "no" to their claim to have "divine" rights to impose their "faith" on others. Just as the Catholic Church was finally forced to give up the demonic cruelties of the Inquisition, the Islamic radicals must be told to quit their violent attempts to force the rest of the world to "believe" in their set of fantasies about the one and only god. Only by ensuring that no such group of fanatics can successfully claim such "rights" can freedom be achieved.

About the article, I found the work of those researchers to be fascinating. Congratulations and thanks to them. They are quietly showing the world what cooperation and the search for new knowledge looks like. May we all get the message.

I sincerely hope that all who read this do so with a desire to know and understand, not just to discount this as the ramblings magnormous ingnoramous.
It seems to me that both camps (i.e. “evolutionist” and “creationists”) are arguing based on a statement of faith. Science, by definition, is the study of the observable; all methods of research must be founded on gathering observable, empirical and measurable evidence subject to specific principles of reasoning. (“The scientific method Rules for the study of natural philosophy", Newton 1999, pp. 794-6, from the General Scholium, which follows Book 3, The System of the World.) In other words, in order for it be proven as fact, the hypothesis must be tested and tried; multiple experiments completed to corroborate data. The beginning of the Universe as we know it can not tested or tried or even observed. As such, educated guesses are the very best that can possibly be accomplished. Evolutionists start out with the assumption that evolution is true, and then try to prove it using evidence that seems to fit the mold. Creationists do the same thing. They start out with the assumption that there is a God, and then fit the facts into their hypothesis. Both camps have serious problems to answer. For the “scientists” (aka evolutionists):

It's so interesting to read people exchange ideas. There may be hope yet for us to evolve into better humans. Creation is still happening. Who ever said it stopped? Isn't evolution a part of creation? I don't have facts to back my words and I don't have big words to impress you guys with the specifics of evolution. I am all for science but I also believe in a God. The world is such a marvelous place and its wonders are countless. This can't be all an accident. Doesn't it suggest a divine design that is so amazing and breathtaking? Since we are talking about creation anyway, science can still not explain the theory of the big bang. Where did all that matter come from anyway. To suggest that it started everything still leaves the question of how it came to be in the first place. Anyway, creation and evolution for me are on the same side of the same coin. They complement each other. Peace.

Oh where to start?? Fist of all, for all you religious folks who are dismssing evolution, maybe you should check your facts. The POPE himself and the Catholic church of which Christianity is derived from has embraced evolution by its very definition. Look it up and get versed!!!! Your problem is that you don't understand evolution from beginning to end. Here's a quick lesson with facts that CANNOT be disputed. There is variation in a single species' population i.e. hair/ skin color based on SMALL genetic differences between individuals. <-(fact). Some individuals' variation may be more advantageous in a specific environment and therefore these individuals will survive, reproduce and pass on their more beneficial traits to their offspring. A great example is given earlier in this series of disscusions with the fish looking like the rock. <-(fact) Therefore, the population as a whole, moving forward, has changed for even that small trait. <-(fact). This is the definition of evolution from micro to macro. Evolution is change in a population! NOT from indidual to individual! THERE IS NO DISPUTING THIS!! Over time these small changes within the environment compound. With emigration or immigration in addition to climate change and geologic change these populations can look very different from where they began and thus create new species. Understanding the species concept is imperitive for understanding evolution as well. But that lesson will be for another day. Everything discussed here is logical! These things happen! How is evolution bad! If you cannot accept the facts and logic then you have absolutely no business being in this ongoing argument. Faith is not Science. GOD is a smart, almighty being. Since he did create EVERYTHING, then that includes EVOLUTION. ACCEPT it!

adaptation is a form of evolution so evolution is no hoax

Come on guys! God did not separate day from night until the third day. When someone can explain to me what a day is to a God before he creates it, then I'll accept that the earth is less than 5000 years old. I should also point out that there is FIRM geologic evidence that civilizations existed long before it sprang up in the Tigris-Euphrates valley.
Science is not faith, and faith is not science. I have faith in both science and faith and sometimes science can explain a mystery of faith.
But My God is much bigger than all these nonsense and distracting arguments. How big is your God? Is he a force in the galaxy? The Universe? The multi-verse? Does he function in 4 dimensions or 12? I never cease to be amazed by people who have the audacity to put limits on God's abilities and to define his actions, by their own narrow knowledge. The words are omniscient, omnipotent, and unknowable!

Dear All,

Smile and happy Sunday everyone!

"If I cannot intellectually understand something, it therefore does not exist."
@ John Von, whom i quoted: That's pretty arrogant IMHO. What you are saying is that if YOU don't understand it, it isn't real, that there is no reality outside of your comprehension, in effect, you are God. It's not difficult to relinquish power to someone whom you trust and love, and who you know loves and trusts you in return.
And peace to you as well!

So which river is deeper, St. Lawrence or this one in the Congo? Did that ever get settled? All the stupid evolutionist/ignorant creationist posts are tl;dr same old etc. to me.

TO the nay Sayers - why couldn't God have created evolution ?
I think evolution is a plausible explanation.

This just HAD to turn into an evolution against lies thing again. I don't get why this has to happen all the time.
Hopefully, people will realize the facts that evolution provides and let go of the lies that plague them so terribly.
This is because from a young age, religious people are indoctrinated with the lies that become their truth. Had they grown up anywhere else, it would be different.
I am so very happy that this whole river thing is going as it is. I really hope that they can find new wonders of evolution down there.
Religion belongs in the past along with the Black Plague, Polio, Corporal Punishment, Racism, Indifference, Apathy, Hatred and Bigotry.

i do not believe in the evolutionary theory. yes THEORY not fact. and it cannot be compared to gravity at all because we see gravity's truth everyday and every moment. Also, many physicists have agreed that gravity possibly is not the force that keeps the planets to orbit around the sun. I was watching a thing on the History channel about Albert Einstein and excuse me for not remembering the details, but they said that space could possibly be pushing the planets to stay in place with the sun.

Now back to evolution. If you really think about it, our living world and universe could not have possibly ended up here by accident. It is way too complex and complicated to NOT be created by God. It is inevitable that our world was created by the ultimate Mastermind. This mastermind being above humans. I refer to this as the Christian God. Furthermore, just because i am a christian does not mean i am an idiot. I respect you if you don't agree howeve i just think you are wrong.
Thank you.

I have a theory that explains the diversity of life on this planet while taking in to account the existence of a Divine Creator. I believe that God made certain animals and they evolved into different species following the laws of nature. For example I don't think God created a dog, a wolf, a fox, etc. I think that a common ancestor of modern canines was created and it evolved into the different animals we see today.

God created everything and then everything evolved. Simple. Coyotes can breed with dogs. Cichlids can crossbreed. After so many hundreds of generations of inbreeding things will change and may not be able to crossbreed anymore. simple

If god created everything, who created god?

I was just wondering, why do you people keep calling Evo and Creation facts? They're both un-proven theories (that are yet to be proven). Oh and by the way, humans didn't evolve from monkeys...

I think that evolution is God's way of changing things when he gets bored. Evolution as a theory makes sense, but cannot be proven. It is on the same basis as faith. I am a Christian, but I feel that God kinda moves the veil of ignorance away when he wants to let us understand. The idea of everything evolving from one single celled organism which accidently was created from an accidental grouping of the 200 protein strains needed and then zapped by lightning is rediculous. Unless God did it. If we were created or evolved, i believe it was God's will. I mean, have you ever started to write something and watched as it turned into a lot more than you had originally intended? Same thing, i think.

i had fun reading these posts.

yet,I DO NOT COMPLETELY agree with any of these.

If you read the article you would know why their are still original species rather than all of the species evolving. For example, a village may be full of people that are similar at one point, but if a natural Barrier was to arise in the middle of this villge ( maybe a river) then the split up villge wouldn't keep going on at the same pace, doing the same thing...

So where did GOD come from? Who created GOD? If GOD is a jealous GOD and you should not worship any other GOD over GOD, does that mean there are other GODs?

Just questions for the religous folks to answer for me. Not trying to disprove, argue, or discredit your faith, just looking for answers. Open to any discussion about it. That is the scientist in me.

I sat here and read most of the above comments, wow this is why so many wars are fought. If you don't believe in my way of thinking you are stupid. Seriously, the article was based upon finding similar fish in the same river with an apparent genetic shift. It also states that the Congo is the deepest river at over 600', which it is the deepest river. A simple google search will easily turn up several hundred websites that can give you this information. Give these SCIENTIST props for doing what they love to do. Research!!!!!

I find the discovery interesting. Have they located the half man half ape yet? I am a Christian, and my job is to imitate CHRIST, GOD does not need my defence I need HIS. Christian is my name love is my aim.

The same people questioning evolution are proposing god without explanation, what gives?

What a cop out, science has to do research and gather evidence while you sit on your laurels and believe in some old white guy in an inerrant book, written several hundred years after the supposed fact.

If there is a God I hope she's a woman who is logical.

The incredible amount of misinformation written in these comments is remarkable in a world that supposedly values education and enlightenment.
Religion and science are different views of the world. Religion demands acceptance and adherence to doctrine while science values analysis and questioning of theories and assumptions.
An educated view of the Bible can make the case that Jesus was not and never claimed to be God, the Creator. That idea was manufactured to make Christianity acceptable to monotheists (Jews), whose creed is strongly that there is only one God. Please note the first commandment.
It is also documented that the bible is composed of writing picked and chosen by those (men)in power at the time of its origin.
Belief in a creator is a matter of faith and as others have written, if one's faith is so weak that it requires discounting all contrary ideas to maintain itself, it is not very deep.
I despair for the future of humankind and nations who insist that only certain thoughts are valid and acceptable. The difference between, say, Iran and conservative America are vanishingly small in that context.
This should be sufficient gasoline on this particular fire for now.

It looks to me that the Elephant fish would come from the very bottom,very neat to see, I still wonder about them other sea monsters we have not found yet.

Evolution is not possible from species to species. Evolution within a species is possible but cannot make another species, such as dogs. The theory of evolution breaks the second law of thermodynamics. This law says any form of energy left to itself will return to chaos. Like a garden, if left alone, will return to chaos. A bomb blast will return to chaos and will not keep building upon itself like evolution does. Any form of energy cannot build itself to be greater then itself, it has to return to chaos, unless interfered with such as a garden or breeds of dogs. All of natures laws are immutable, they cannot be changed. If there are laws, then there must be a law giver.

I think life is great, I like hearing all these different thinkings of people, I like hearing about all these new dicoverys of our world, why do we kill over the bible, why cann't we find differents interesting.

thank you to the dude who highlighted the fact that christian beliefs are relatively young, if you believe in history. why is it that many of the "god is great" opinions are so arrogant? what makes your dogma the be all that ends all? do you not think that others may have just as much FAITH in their hearts about an infinite number of other beliefs? may all our own personal MYTHOLOGIES get us through the day, even if they are unique and personal, and cannot be found in any book.

Please do not be discouraged by the nay-sayers you are doing great fascinating work I was captivated and in awe at your truly unique findings. I feel honored and privileged just to see your findings in a photograph... please don't stop!
Evolution is a wonderful thing

So interesting article, i learn some important information. Well i cant imagine how far it goes on for another debate and argumentation of evolution.

Anyways, what can you expect when it comes to evolution.

What if the title says the "Deepest River in the World"?
Sounds good! right?, If there's a conflict, only in the deepest. ^^

It gets down to one of two points. Either God created everything or nothing created everything. Both require faith.

EVOLUTION IS REAL!!!
yeah, ok, so tell us something we dont know. NO ONE should dispute this fact. it is a fact. evolution of species exists, has always existed. this is not a theory. what is a theory and so far unprovable is EVOLUTION OF KINDS DOES NOT EXIST. species change within their boundaries, but there is NO evidence of an intermediate kind, all the way from an amoeba to man, no evidence, and if you know anything about evolution, that it takes thousands, millions of years to accomplish, then you would know that the fossil records show that there is NO EVOLUTION OF KINDS. it amazes me that so many people argue about things that they dont even know the question.

One thing is for certain. A never ending life would be the ultimate wish for any of us. A bit self serving perhaps ( and not as tasty as a Guinness) but worth fighting for if only to keep the dream alive so as not to ponder the alternative...

I am shocked by the number of people who were unable to read this article and just appreciate the amazing information the Congo River studies have uncovered. This chat stream supports my belief that religion and science are different languages. Stop trying to persuade each other; it is obvious that it only falls on deaf ears. There are issues on this planet that need this sort of devotion. How about world hunger? Genocide? Child trafficing? AIDS? Nuclear weapons?

We should stop worrying about how we got here and be concerned about where we are going as a species. Look forward people!

Please do not confuse the THEORY of Evolution (which I do consider valid) with Natural Selection which is a separate mechanism and the foundation of Darwin's theory. That is what the fish show, the results of Natural Selection.

The fact that people still debate evolution on the "internets" makes me want to use my computer for firewood.

Did any of you antievolutionists ever think that God created evolution to help us all to survive in the ever changing environment of this world? I am a scientist and I believe in God. There is no conflict.

The darwinian evolution atheist cult keeps implying that NOTHING created everything!I was hip to this psuedo-scientific scam from elementary school forward. The stunning demonic deception is staggering. As the genome project has discovered,life is irreducibly complex and proves we are fearfully and wonderfully made!

Evolution is the best understanding we have reached after 500 years of scientific study. If there were no bible with stories about creation, there is not one scientist on earth that would have studied the evidence, and concluded the universe sprang into existance in 4004BC at 4PM, and all life sprang into existance as is. Christains that claim evolution is a hoax are showing how desperate they are to cling to things they know cannot possibly be true, inspite of reality staring them right in the face. If you want to cling to your ancient goat-farmer human sacrifice religion, keep your nonsense off scientific discussion boards.

DH,

You blasted a poster for opposing your view of evolution in this comment section by saying "Probably a comment by some kid who just wants to ruffle some feathers."

Well, I am not a kid and want to know where is your "proof" of evolution? Can't post any? Why? Is it because you have no concrete proof of evolution. Sure there is change in species over time impacted by the environment but there is no proof a species ever changed into another species by evolving into it. Where's the proof???

Point in fact: all species are transitional.

Dear Evolutionists, How did the spark of life evolve? Where did the first bit of energy come from? Where did the first form of life come from from which to evolve? Evolution can only take place once there is something to evolve from. Evolution could not have started life, it could not have started the universe. Tell me where the first thing came from from which to begin evolution, and then I will listen to the idea that evolution is scientific. Evolution cannot exist unless it STARTED something first. Evolution cannot recreate any form of life at it's first moment, so it is not scientific. Get it?
How did things get here to evolve from?????

Gensis 1: 26 "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion"
Now look at man he is white, beige, red, brown, black and mix. Some are short, some tall, some fat, and some skinny. They adapt to there envirionment from the ice of the poles to heat of the Sahara. Evolution looks you in the face everyday, but as some fish you are to blind to see. If you give him credit for creating all of this why do you limit what he can create to what you think. What apple did you eat to tell God what he is allowed to create? Evolution if anything proves that God does exist by the sheer grandness of all that exists here.

Evolution is true? Anyone who doesn't believe it doesn't believe in gravity? There is a force that holds me to the earth, sure, it's obvious from EXPERIENCE. Now, evolution on the other hand, is all faith-based theory. The entire story from beginning to end is filled with inconsistencies, a lack of time, a lack of information, a lack of fossils, a lack of science, a lack of observations, a lack of open minds.

One simple question can fell the evolutionary believer:
What came first, DNA or the information in DNA that organizes proteins into DNA?

Fools.

Experiment after loaded experiment has failed to prove that given the right conditions and mix of ingredients that DNA will spontaneously appear. All have failed, even the most rigged experiments where bits of DNA were mixed with proteins in the hope that something glorious would happen.

It takes blind faith to believe evolution...absolutely blind.

Just stop and look at the world around you and try to force yourself to believe that it is all a random accident. Then think for a moment that if you knew all the inputs into how something is made or formed or moves or behaves, then you should realize that there is no such thing as randomness. Randomness is nothing more than a synonym for ignorance (willful ignorance at times).

People ""believe"" in evolution and people believe in GOD. Both are believes. GOD has NOT been proven its a fictional character prommising fictional benefits to people. Evolution has NOT been proven but there is enough evidence that point to it and it does not offer fictional benefits to people. All the bible is, is a book written by man soley for the control of man by a few. Besides a few historic landmarks (there are many of those in modern day fiction by Stephen King and others) nothing that the bible describes has been proven. There is NOTHING to actually show for. Moreover it is shown that many of the old testament tales where adaptations from older texts and sagas originating long before biblical times. Yes evolution has many items to show for its thesis...just go to the smithsonian and other museums. In my eyes the scoret is evolution 1, creation 0.
It is easy for the feeble minded to point to a mountain and say aww isn't that beautiful GOD created it when he created earth...totally dicarding the facts of plate tectonics and other.

John

evolution is a state of mind not a state of being..

Science by definition either proves or disproves something through experimentation. With the emergence of genetics and an increase in knowledge of biology, the human body is far too complicated to have evolved by chance. The amount of genetic information required to produce an eye, much less an entire body, is astronomical. Science has proven that cell mutation always produces something less than the original. While science can't prove the existence of a god that created the universe, it can't disprove it either. So it takes as much or more faith to believe in evolution as it does to believe in god. Evolution then becomes just as much a religion as any on the list.

Interesting...If God doesn't exist why are you fighting so hard against Him? Your denial of Him is proof of His existence. ie: No one ever argues against an $11 dollar bill, because there is no such thing and it would be pointless. No business I know of would accept it as currency.

Point: If you have not studied the Bible or evolution then you have not earned the right to speak for or against it and your word is worthless.

Jerry, no disrespect but in order for you to even date all your fun facts you had to use A.D. Anno Domini (sometimes found in the irregular form Anno Domini), abbreviated as AD or A.D., and Before Christ, abbreviated as BC or B.C., are designations used to number years in the Julian and Gregorian calendars. The calendar era to which they refer is based on the traditionally reckoned year of the conception or birth of Jesus, with AD denoting years after the start of this epoch, and BC denoting years before the start of this epoch. There is no year zero in this scheme, so the year AD 1 immediately follows the year 1 BC.
The preceding paragraph found at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anno_Domini

Creationism absolves us from continuing to evolve.

That's evident in many of the posts above.

There's no necessary disconnect between scientific explanations and wonder at the divinity behind them.

If God created everything, then He was the only witness to what happened. God has gone to great pains to describe in Genesis 1 the creation of the heavens and the earth. It is not a scientific description, but a graphic and chronological one. He is very clear that creation was over a 6 day period: He uses ordinal numbers for the days of creation and He states "there was evening and there was morning..." for each day - a traditional 24 hour day.
God simply spoke the heavens and the earth and all of creation into existence - with the notable exception of mankind. He formed man from the dust of the ground - He was and remains a "hands on" God. He created everything living according to its own kind. Mankind's experiments with cross breeding apes and humans early in the 1900's had disastrous results. Yet zebras and donkeys can create a zonkey, a tiger and a leopard created a liger, etc.
God describes Himself in the Bible as self-existing and eternal: therefore He did not Himself have a creator. He says that His son, Jesus Christ, "The Word Made Flesh", created the universe with Him and is worthy to receive honor and glory and praise because He, in loving obedience to His Father's plan, died on the cross so that sinful mankind might be saved from the justified wrath of our perfectly righteous and holy, yet graciously merciful God. God calls on all of mankind to repent and come humbly to Jesus for forgiveness and acceptance.

God says because of mankind's great sinfulness,He destroyed the earth and all mankind except for one man He found righteous - Noah - and his family. He says He did it with a world-wide flood. The flood covered "ALL" the highest mountains. Worldwide, we see evidence of catastrophic water action and sedimentary rocks. Water draining off the land/homes/vegetation leaves sediment behind. The Grand Canyon is exactly what one would picture being created by a huge, half-continental?? lake suddenly breaching its dam. Look at the massive "gullies" all along the Central Valley of California. Billions of years necessary?? The geological evidences left by successive explosions of Mt. St. Helens (and the rapid creation and "aging" of Surtsey Island!) say "no!". Deep canyons cut through solid rock by flowing mud. Minutely layered sedimentary deposits tens of feet thick (in 1 day), deep gullies formed. Layered "forests' of downed trees with truncated roots forming in Spirit Lake after the eruption blast downed/drowned the trees around it, settling into bark/debris on the bottom - gives a different explanation for the alleged "successive" forests at Yellowstone. Radiometric dating calculations must ASSUME how much parent and daughter elements were in a sample at its beginning, something unknowable. Thus, merely antique artifacts are dated in the millions of yrs. Defense lawyers object to old DNA evidence, but evolutionists, faced with workable DNA on dinosaur bones parrot "65 million yrs w/ straight faces. Life? Your brain and all your minutely complex and intricately functioning cells did not evolve, any more than your computer did. We are without excuse if we reject the Creator God.

Re: Evolution is a hoax...

As long as creationists tell me the earth is only about 6000 years old, the complaints about evolution fall on deaf ears with me. In fact cosmologists are suggesting now that evolutionary principles are not just linked to "life" but also in how the universe, galaxies, stars and planets are formed...in fact it may be that evolution is a dominant natural phenomenon and is responsible for how life occurs throughout the known Universe.

This thread, as always happens, is little more then utter ignorance on display. On BOTH sides. Although there are some interesting and "fair" posts.

The Bible is a book written by men you say? They had an agenda you say? And the biology text book you were given in high school was written by whom, dolphins? And there is no agenda behind public education you say?

Do you think the education "system" is really there to educate you? Do you really think the ruling elite of the country/world want you as smart and as knowledgeable as you can possibly be? Do you really?

Has anything in human history indicated that powerful people WELCOME competition to the point they would actually help create their own competition, ie smart people able to compete with them for control over society?

George Carlin said it best, they want obedient workers who are just smart enough to do the paperwork and run the machines and just dumb enough to not realize they got thrown overboard by their country 30 years ago.

Here is my "take" on evolution. Is there evidence right now of a transition taking place? Millions of species evolving over billions of years, right? So there should be thousands of observable transitions at this point in time.

I am unaware of a single one. Is there a guy somewhere who was born with a fully functional eye in the back of head? Considering the number of people who have died from blows struck from behind in human history, wouldn't nature figure out by now that this would be a valuable mutation?

Where is the walking catfish with a wing developing out of his back so his offspring, when they develop the other wing in a few million years, can fly instead of walk?

I would welcome any examples of valid transitions and would reevaluate my opinion on this issue if one or more were provided.

Greg - "It's especially annoying when people cite the Bible as their proof"

Why is it annoying? I believe you can fight on a hill and still defend it. Using the Bible as proof isn't rediculous.

Amanda - "then wouldn't that mean someone had to make god?

Umm...did you hear of the law of cause and effect which states that ultimately there has to be a first cause?

The premise (ie apple falling to earth) is observable through our senses – ‘natural phenomena’. We call them ‘facts’. The fact is that the apple falls to earth. The question is ‘why so?’. Newton came up with his thesis to answer the question. He said that the earth has ‘gravity’. He gave a formula to calculate this so called ‘gravity’. Newton’s formula is called “Newton’s law of gravity”. This formula is severely tested. When we designed rockets to defy gravity we use Newton’s formula to calculate the amount of force needed to defeat gravity. The formula worked. It has worked ever since. Before we sent man to the moon we predicted (based on Newton’s formula) that the moon too has gravity but much lesser. When man walked on the moon he is able to prove that Newton’s law worked. Newton’s hypothesis worked and has unlocked the mystery of falling objects. Newton’s hypothesis became a ‘theory’. A ‘theory’ is basically a hypothesis that has stood the test. It will remain a ‘theory’ until a better explanation comes along. What is the basic fact Darwin was working on? The basic fact is this: There are myriads of different species of living things. (This is a fact – no problem). Through ‘natural selection’ species change habit, food, appearance, etc. We can observe these facts too. No problem. Darwin hypothesized further that these different species came from a common ancestor. Sometimes a species will perform a ‘quantum leap’ and evolve into a completely new species (This is where we have differences). This quantum leap from one species to a different one is what we are unable to perceive through our senses. Therefore, evolution (i.e the quantum leap) is not based on fact but merely a hypothesis in itself. Darwin’s idea of evolution is not a hypothesis based on facts and later accepted, after rigorous testing, and honored as a ‘theory’ (like gravity). What I do not understand is that a lot of people labeled Darwin’s idea a ‘theory’.

"There is SO MUCH more proof and fact for creation that its not even close." doug chivers Ok Doug, I'll bite, what proof and fact?

"Fred Hoyle, one of the greatest scientists of the 20th century, calculated the odds that all of the functional proteins necessary for life might form in one place by random event. The calculation is 10(40000). Since there are only 10(80) subatomic particles in the entire visible universe, the physicists concluded that this was “an outrageously small probability that could not be faced even if the whole universe consisted of organic soup!”
Science is now beginning to realize the conclusions for the evolutionary model are false."

Science is not believing any such thing. Hoyle's fallacy, as it is known, has been dissected and shown to be nonsense for quite some time.

"To all evolutionists, humor me for a moment. I'm sure you would all agree that best way to make an omelet is to....Take a carton of eggs, an electric skillet, butter, green peppers, onions (whatever you like in an omelet. Place these few simple ingredients in a box, tape the box up and throw it down a hill. Sounds ridiculous right? Well the odds of making a delicious omelet in this way are greatly more probable than all life on earth being formed by an evolutionary process. The numbers don't lie."

Yet one more person who believes evolution states that highly complex life forms appear all at once.....it doesnt, please, read up on it.

While I am not here to ruffle feathers I feel obligated to clear up a misconception that many of you have. With regards to humans evolving from primates that is an incorrect assumption. Humans and primates evolved from a common ancestor. Think of it this way the common ancestor is the trunk of a tree. Humans and primates are separate branches extending out from the trunk.

Comparing gravity to evolution as both being factual is also an incorrect statement. Gravity has been proven to be a fact, whereas evolution will likely remain a theory. The immense amount of evidence supporting evolution, is why the scientific community agrees with evolution.

Why do people insist that creation and evolution have to be mutually exclusive? Why not combine the best of both beliefs and say that god created everything to evolve?
Oh, why can't we all just get along?

There is no evidence AT ALL for the existence of any of your Gods. You choose to believe because you want to and are told to. Science offers truth supported by evidence and which can be confirmed experimentally by any of you. The universe exists due to the scientific parameters that govern it. Before the universe existed didn't exist, time started at the big bang when the universe was created. The rules that mean the universe exists preclude the existence of any omnipresent entity. If these rules weren't true, the universe couldn't exist. And it does or I couldn't be writing this. Wake up to the truth and free your minds from mediaeval beliefs in magic. You may as well believe in the Tooth Fairy or Closet Monster - there is just as much evidence for their existence as any of your Gods. A world without religion would be a much more fair and peaceful world.

When are you evolutionists going to wake up to two different facts. The first fact is there has never been any scientific proof of a species of an animal changing to a completely different species. Saying that one catfish has a flathead and another catfish does not, is not proving anything because they are still a catfish. The second fact is evolution only tries to explain the development of creation but can't explain the origins or more specifically how everything got its start. To claim the big bang is the explanation you still have to explain where that bang came from.

Joe - "Whether our Creator created Earth and its inhabitants as we know them in 7 days or 4.5 billion years is irrelevant.

Yes it is indeed very relevant. Where in the Bible does it tell you God created the earth over millions of years? It makes it very clear in Genesis 1 that God created the earth and the universe in 6 literal days. If you believe that God created the earth over millions of years, then you are undermining the authority of God. Don't tell me that we need falible human beings to tell God what He meant in His Word.

DAM the Frik'n Congo river, produce power, and watch some rapid social evolution in Africa.

FOOD FOR THOUGHT:
Before you folks waste any more time arguing, I suggest both sides take some time to learn what it is your trying to argue about.
Suggested Study Topics:

Macroevolution vs. Microevolution - just because I see so many folks using microevolution examples to try to prove macroevolution.

God vs. Religion - So often when people argue for or against God they often use personal beliefs (i.e. religion or religious doctrine) Thus they fall into the old man with the beard trap, where they should be thinking more along the lines of a eternal lifeforce that may or may not interact with human kind.

Now if anyone here can prove to me, anything, anything at all. Then I will give you my house and both my cars. Because at the end of the day "EVERYTHING is RELATIVE" to your temporal, spatial, reasoning. Can you even prove you exist? What if your life is all just a dream that some dog is having before he wakes up and licks himself.

Gene- First off I want to say I am a Christian and I read the Bible fairly regularly.

As for your comment on the time with which God created the earth, you are correct in your statement about it taking 7 days, one of which was a day of rest. But, one thing I feel many people don't think about is that God is outside of time and therefore, he can see into the future, past, etc. Hence, in God's view, 7 days could be thousands of years when you bring it to today's time intervals. Each day may have covered thousands of hours. My point is, we do not know for sure how long each day was when God created the earth. We know the sun rose and fell each day, but we do not know how long those days were.

It is a very sticky subject and one that I feel can have many different views. But when it is all said and done, the one belief that must be accepted is the fact that God is the creator of the universe. There is no such thing as true evolution that most of these people have commented on. Yes, there is evolution in plants in the sense that they are constantly adjusted and whatnot, but a lot of that plant evolution is contributed to man creating hybrids and mix genes. But the fact of evolution truly taking place in animals is absurd. Animals were created by God and just because there are different looking animals within species, doesn't mean evolution has occurred. It just means there is a different subspecies.

After reading everyones opinions over evolution and religion I have come to the conclusion that everyone sounds crazy. No one is ever going to figure out if they are right or wrong so we might as well stop arguing. Sure, we will find out eventually when we die but until then WE WILL NEVER KNOW. Arguing about evolution is just a waste of time. I am a Christian and I believe what the Bible says... but I also believe that species do change and adapt. Maybe everyone should become a little more open minded towards life. JUST A THOUGHT!

Nice article Kyle. I never would have guessed your window into the depths of the Congo River would spurn a window into the disparity between creationist and evolutionist. Warring tribes encamped on opposite ledges of a deep chasm; each hurling wads made of bits of logic, myth, and fact; exhorting their truths. With the shearing winds of passion rising from the depths and ripping away any line attempting a bridge. You should keep a scrap book of all the comments – life is predictably unpredictable.

T J writes above, in part:

"2. If God Created us in his image, why do we have such similar genetic traits to primates co-existing with us?"

My response:

If we are not a special creation, why are we so wildly different from all other animals? We are the only species with a written language, the only one who worships and questions the reasons for our existence. Other animals may appear to have spoken languages; however, these consist of simple words or phrases concerning food, safety, etc. these "words" cannot be recombined to express new ideas, and certainly not abstract ideas.

Do you think our intelligence and its manifestaions are necessary for survival on this planet (and therefore the result of natural selection)? Then why don't more species share our level of intelligence?

Accordng to Darwin, evolution is a process by which life arose from nonliving matter and developed entirely by natural means - spontaneously without a Creator.

Belief in evolution as Darwin stated it has a metaphysical more than a scientific motivation. If a person's wordlview does not include faith in and responsibility to God, of course he would want to believe that we evolved from a single cell by accident.

The fact is that God has given us the incredible gift of his written word, written by men inspired by the Holy Spirit, so that we may know him in a personal way. It is for this that we were created. So the testimony of the Holy Spirit is our proof that God exists and has created the universe and all it contains.

The Bible is a unified book, with a cohesive message, even though is was written by many people over thousands of years. It is the story of God's dealings with man, and his purpose for man's redemption. There is more proof of the Bible's origins and authenticity -original texts, contemporary historical documents, archeological info - than there is for many other historical events and documents that are considered authentic.

Based on these comments I would have to say that evolution has touched and influenced every species on earth, EXCEPT humans!
Druss

I believe that it is amazing how a creationist vs. evolutionist debate began on this thread. I also believe that regardless of what your personal beliefs are, you should appreciate the small gain science had that was explained in this artice. Not only did we find the lowest point in any river in the world, but we also discovered several new species of fish (regardless of how they came about). These minor gains are significant and should be appreciated for what they are, not argued about whether or not it was caused by God (or any divine being for that matter) or nature itself.

Well, why do people try to seperate religion and science so much? God is not trying to pull the wool over anyone's eyes...there is no reason to be afraid of theories that science points to. Perhaps evolution is controlled by God, and all we can see on Earth are these magnificant creatures that have changed over time. That is the definition of evolution: changes in organisms over time. Just a thought.

~Ang

Science is Science & Religion is Religion !!!
If you combine the two, a thousand questions would arise than answer. Leave it to GOD and let us admire all the things he had made...

The Bible is a collection of stories of unknown origin, passed down through the generations. Most cultures have similar stories and it is curious how similar they are.(Either watch or read Joseph Campbell's "The Power of Myth".) The stories were created by man and were written down by man on tablets, scrolls, or books. Many of the stories are responses to social and environmental challenges the people faced and they established social order. If religion is studied from the point of view of the sociologist, it is much more understandable why it exists. The fact that it has existed for thousands of years does not make the stories true. Veracity can only be assigned by research and or testing. 100 years ago, 99% of our scientific knowledge did not exist, let alone 2000 years ago. What will become known in the next 100 years? I suspect that many fundamental questions will be answered. People will either believe the science or reject it. The same as today. Regardless of which side you are on, there is no convincing the other side of your correctness.

Again I think much of this argument that the Creationist use is that if one part of the Theory of Evolution is wrong than all of it is. That simply isn't the case the Theory of Evolution is constantly evolving it's self as we discover new pieces of evidence. Science is not like your faith, were if you take out part of the story the whole thing falls apart. If you remove the resurrection than much of your faith is gone with it. Science doesn't work like that in any which way. So don't try and disprove science with religion. It does not work. Though science can disprove much of religion. Simply because science is not based on faith!!

To The Oracle (11/9, 11:27 a.m.)
Yes, time began when the universe was created: when GOD created it. Big Bang? Not the evolutionists' version! Consider black holes: defined by SCIENCE as being so dense that not even light can escape. Now cram all the matter in all black holes, stars, planets etc. into a speck the size of a peach or a basketball, which is how EVOLUTION describes the matter from which the Big Bang came. Now explain, SCIENTIFICALLY, how all that matter managed to escape (via an explosion) labelled Big Bang? Remember, just ONE black hole is so dense that not even light can escape.

Evolution clearly is not "science" but explanations based on assumption - the atheists' inviolable assumption that God does NOT exist and that man must offer a different explanation for the existence of the universe.

The existence of the universe in no way precludes the existence of God! You would appreciate paleontologist Dr. Kurt Wise's explanation of the philosophical proof of the existence of the omnipresent God of the Bible. He combines that with scientific evidence in Faith,Form and Time.

Dr. Walt Brown's Hydroplate Theory (detailed in his major scientific work, In The Beginning) is briefly summarized in Diego Rodriquez' The Fountains of the Great Deep. This theory gives scientific evidence for Noah's flood and explains the mechanism/physics/geology of how it must have happened. Dr. Brown's parsimonious, much-ignored theory explains many scientific mysteries. Couple that with Earth in Upheaval by Velikovsky. For life sciences, find Dr. A. E. Wilder-Smith's works (The Natural Sciences Know Nothing of Evolution, etc). With 3 earned PhD's in Physical Organic Chemistry, he knew science! Mathematical examination of evolution? Read I. L. Cohen's Darwin was Wrong: A study in Probabilities. Mind-boggling!

Are you are brave enough to examine the scientific evidence with an open mind?

Evolution is a big hoax, it never existed and it never will. The History books should all be rewritten to explain that man came into the world through Adam and Eve and that was the beginning of mankind upon the earth Adam being the first man on the Earth and Eve being the first woman. We all came from this beginning and people will continue to be born into this world and die only to return to our Father in heaven who created us. It's as simple as that...

Others, such as Kathy above, are generous to the evolutionist; they give the benefit of there being "matter" in the beginning. But we must go farther back than that. Where did matter come from? Some would ask the same question of God, but it is a mute point since we only have two options: either someone put everything here, or it got here on its own. If it was God who put everything here, then He says He is uncreated, case closed. However, if not God, then.... Some suggest that evolutionists say in the beginning was nothing, and the nothing compressed in on itself until it was so densely heated that bang! The problem with this is there wasn't anything there to be compressed because "nothing" doesn't exist, and neither does anything else. LOL! wrap your head around that for awhile, but it's true. Nothing is just that: nothing. It doesn't exist because it is an absence of everything. The nothing-est nothing we can have today still has something surrounding it, as well as contains energy in one form or another (i.e. heat or light), so it is difficult to imagine nothing as really meaning there isn't anything that exists. But that is how it was in the beginning.

Existence did not exist yet, so what would be compressed to form any kind of density? How do you condense nothing? What was condensed? Nothing! And along the same line, how do you heat nothing up? What was heated? Nothing! (LOL! - phew! this is fun).

In the beginning, apart from God, there was 100% absolutely nothing, not even existence, yet. Now, tell me where matter and energy come from again?

Could someone or something create science? Can science be a god? Can we have faith in science? Could science create God or a god?

I believe it comes back to one thing... "In the beginning" and in the beginning has two options something comes from something or something comes from nothing. Those are the only two options ultimately. An I wrong on this point? The issue is which is easier believing in the something or the nothing. Although I suppose you could say the something is SCIENCE and that created everything but I think you would have the wrong label

If God wants me to know the answer to the question of evolution vs creation He/She will personally tell me in His/Her own good time. Or send a celestial messenger with impeccable, unchallengeable credentials. Or I will have arrived at the pearly gates for admission or rejection.
God will fully understand my caution brought on by the clamor of so many claiming sole rights to the dispensation of His/Her will.
Thanks to His/Her plans, humans were given the brains to think, to seek the truth, to practice the Golden Rule, and to leave this world better than we found it.
An atheist? An Agnostic? An unbeliever? No, thank you. I have no time for unprovable labels. I'm just an American who has seen a good part of our planet, loved every bit, and hope to leave it in better shape for future generations.

We live about 70-120 years. In that short time, it is hard to directly observe phenomena which take millions of years to occur. Stalagtites and stalagmites in caves grows throw the continula dripping of water with high concentration of minerals in caves. Eventually, the minerals in each drop connect together and form structures. It is a process. It is a process that takes time and even though for some of these mineral structures that time may be thosuands of human life times, it can be measured. In the same way, DNA changes over time. The climatic environment, the changes in the DNA of predators, in prey, in plants all lead to certain emergent traits due to the changes in DNA to become dominant within a population. These changes are real, observed through the fossil record, and are measureable. Religious literalism which denies evolution is no different than the mind set of Flat Earthers who think satelite photos are fraudulent. God continues to exist if you believe in God, even if you trust your empirical observation of reality. Do you think God would create fossils just to fool us, test us or play games? No, my foolish pseudo-religious friends, if you trust God, you can trust the observations of the universe made through the process of science, since God gave us brains. Evolution is no more a hoax than quantum mechanics.

Well now, are people still arguing about evolution? I believe from when I read the bible once, I remember it said something like 2 things actually to prove that evolution is real and that god created evolution. One , we were made from the clay ( via vast evolution from the primordial ooze ) And ask and the lord shall provide ( how does one ask? in a mytiad ways. Does the fish wish to look like a rock ? it is so. Does the bird wish to have a long beak and bright feathers? it is so. Does man wish to communicate to all others quickly and efficiently in seconds over many miles? It is so. Will anyone listen? Well, ya' know free will and all.)