dear sir, regarding the story of the message in Lincoln's watch, could the remainder of the message have been removed by a later repairer?

I believe the correct sentence would read: "it will be a while", not "awhile". ;)

Wonder why there was no mention of the inscription that was written by Jonth Dillon that says, "Thank God we have a government." All the others are mentioned...

Did anyone happen to notice Jeff Davis scratched on the bridge???

Regarding the "LE Grofs" engraved on the watch: I believe this would read as "LE Gross"? What appears to be "f" is actually a stylised "s" which was in the style used then.

Becki Jones, you say that the Civil War was not caused by slavery, but rather State's Rights. This is a myopic argument. #1 The south was frequently AGAINST state's rights when it benefited the institution of slavery. A) The Fugitive Slave Act hurt northern state's rights no longer were the trials in the localities, but in southern courts, northern tax money and resources would no be forced to help catch runaways against the will of the northern localities -- the Dred Scott decision hurt northern territories and threatened northern state's ability to ban slavery from within their own boarders.. #2 The south has a hard time pointing to a state right that we being violated in 1860 that doesn't pertain to slavery. EVERY SINGLE reason that South Carolina gave in their official declaration of secession pertains directly to slaves (ie the north is not doing enough to catch runaways, some northern states let blacks vote, they elected Lincoln who is opposed to the expansion of slavery, etc..) Also, tariffs, which South Carolina did not mention among their many reasons for secession was not a state's right and could only be raised when the south broke off, as there was not strong support for higher tariffs in the Great Lakes and western regions. Finally, I think your professor did a poor job of putting into context Lincoln's actions. Lincoln as president clearly believed that slavery was wrong, but preserving the union was his primary job. He did not believe that he had the power to ban slavery, but for a war measure in the rebel areas. Trying to ban it in the border states would have had no legal merit, cost him the war, and led to more chaos.

Here is the Smithsonian trying to rewrite history. If you believe the message in the watch was truthful and accurate that is good but the script on the watch doesn't say what the article says. It neither mentions slavery nor the word president. I am amazed that clear words that are inscribed are still mis-represented. Why must we try to change history to our liking?

I'm certain that the fact that Jefferson Davis was a Confederate leader has already been overstated.

Wouldn't the inscription "LE Grofs Sept 1864 Wash DC" be another watchmaker noting that he'd serviced the watch? It's my understanding, at least, that watches and clocks needed to be serviced regularly and that the men doing the servicing noted when on a hidden part of the watch for a record.

Would it have been to much trouble to have a full picture of the watch? You people should be more professional.

L.E. Gross was listed as a watchmaker in the 1866 directory for Washingtom DC.

The other name there is L.E. Gross, not Grofs. What looks like "fs" is the old way of writing a double s.

I don't see how the watch could have been inscribed April 13, 1861 when the Waltham records show the watch was produced in 1863. I understand these other two names could have been watchmakers that serviced the watch on later dates since watch oiling and servicing was routine.

I call BS on the story in that someone ran up the stairs to tell Dillon the first shots were fired. Why?
18s Waltham Wm Ellery
Start: 1/1/1863 End: 1/31/1863
First: 67581 Last: 67900
Lincoln's watch was not even on earth on April 13, 1861

hi guy's. i just happened upon this news about the said watch of abe.just got a few questions for anyone who may want to get back to me.#1 are you sure this is abe's time piece? not one statement on face says what the 1861 guy said.you need to make sure now that said watch is or was abe's.#2look at war papers to see if the south was called rebels in 1861. has the metal in the watch been carbon dated to 1850,s. now it looks like to me that since you opened said watch,every step should be taken to be sure that this jewel is abe'.look at letters on watch and compare to how folks wrote back in 1860's.those writings don't look like the same way they wrote back then.i have seen a bunch of letters from that era and it looks different to me. think!

Where can I find more photos of the watch? All I can find are photos of the dial and of the inscription. I would like to see the other side of the movement.

Hi there,
I have a pocket watch for sale UNITED STATES CONSTITUTION BICENTENNIAL 1787-1987. Would you be able to direct me to the right place? Thanks!

Lincoln is revered because he did a more than competent job in impossible circumstances. True, he did negate most of the bill of rights during the war. And as for slavery, he stated plainly that if freeing the slaves would win the war he would free them and if keeping them slaves would win the war he would do that instead. But he was an absolute genius with words and so it is that his voice, along with Jefferson's and Monroe's, rings through American history. He was also hands down the funniest President ever or ever will be.

I took a course in American History at Clayton State University last year and learned that the slaves being freed by the EP were only those in the Southern States, not the northern states. I also learned that before becoming President, Lincoln wrote letters to all the governors of non-slave states encouraging them to get their states to accept slavery. The civil war was NOT caused by slavery. It was an issue that has still not been resolved: states rights. More could be said but there is not enough space or time here. Read and study before you try to make Lincoln a saint or even one of our best presidents. One of my ancestors was Lincoln's second grade tutor. He grew to be an exceptional man, a good leader, and had he not been shot his plan for reconstruction would have healed the wounds of this nation. Yet what followed was worse than the war. I too think his death was too soon and very sad. History is written by those who win wars. We need to read and study both sides of that war if we are to ever understand one another. "Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it."

Oh My God I love the clouded leopards they are so cute one day I would LOVE to work at the smithsonian and learn about this history. But first I have to get through Middle school without failing Yay

Kevin, The laying of flowers on graves is a European tradition practiced in America way before President Lincolns funeral. Check with American newpapers from the 1850s and you'll find references to it.

If those that post a message here want to read more about the interesting man named Abe Lincoln and his times,then perhaps they should read April 1865 - by: Jay Winik an excellant read! A fine example of things I did not know falls on page #359 "The final tribute for "Father Abraham" was more symbolic, but no less appropriate. Searching for some way to express their grief, countless Americans gravitated to bouquets of flowers: Lilies,Lilacs,roses, and orange blossoms, anything which was in bloom across the land. Thus was born a new American tradition: laying flowers at a funeral".

Go to the Abraham Lincoln Papers at the Library of Congress and do a keyword for Church

Or

http://lcweb2.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/r?ammem/mal:@field(DOCID+@lit(d1444700))

[Alexandria Virginia Episcopalians to Abraham Lincoln, Sunday, February 09, 1862 (Report of a disturbance at their church)] This incendent is backed up with a full report in the O.R. Also, the O.R. specifically details the orders in which all Union forces were under in enforcing Lincoln's Prayer.

Also, the word searchable O.R. at Cornell University is absolutely full of information about the war on churches, the involvement of the Pope, ect...

http://cdl.library.cornell.edu/moa/moa_browse.html

I have collected quit a number of reports of arrest, burnings, closings, related to churches from these references.

Dave, your information was interesting but I would sure like to see the names of the "records" where you got the information so I could see them, too.

Brian, although I don't whole heartedly agree with Mr. Freyder I do in spirit. President Lincoln's E.P. did not free any slaves under Lincoln's control. Those slaves in the areas specified in the E.P. had to free themselves if they wanted to be free. The majority of slaves in areas controlled by Lincoln's troops stayed slaves, many were kept picking cotton to supply the North with money to fight the war. Loyal masters were allowed to sell there male slaves at $300 dollars a-head to enlist them into the U.S. Army, making Lincoln's government the largest owner of slaves in the Western Hemisphere. The Union had five slave states on its side contributing to the war effort and not one was told to free its slaves by Lincoln. Lincoln was the last president to creat and admit into the United States a slave state, West Virginia; an act he vowed never to do. As president Lincoln had no powers to approve the 13th Amendment. One more fact, President Lincoln was never president of the the United States, only that section called the "Union"; he never ran a campaign in the South, he did not put himself on the ballots in the South. He was a non-majority, sectional president, put in office by wealthy interest in which he worked for as a corporate lawyer. Lincoln first took the oath after seven states had seceded. He died while the war was still going on, so he NEVER had the privilege to perform the duties of President of the UNITED States. While President Lincoln was giving the Gettysburg Address armed Union troops, he personally sent to Maryland and Delaware, were arresting Democrats trying to vote. His troops were controlling the polls during those local elections to steal the votes for Republicans and Unionist. So much for a "government of the people, by the people, for the people", he didn't practice of believe one word he spoke. Not one of these points are "revisionist" in anyway; they are never taught or discussed in todays populist history.

On March 13th, Dave wrote some pretty horrific data regarding the treatment of churches and clergy during the War between the States. While I have never read of such sacrilege by troops from this Republic (which certainly does not say this sort of behavior did not occur!), it DID refresh in my ememory the horrors of the English Civil War, when similar terrible devastation occurred to churches, great and humble, by the Cromwellian, Commonwealth troops. Just goes to show, I guess, that ALL idols have feet of clay! I suppose, too, it certifies my position as a pacifist - too often, soldiers, in the commission of war, are little more than rioting mobs! That cannot speak well for their "cause."

According to my European-born and trained watchmaker with 60 years' experience, it is a tradition to inscribe the date and initials (or name) of the watchmaker whenever a fine watch is repaired or cleaned. It is very probable that L. E. Gross would have told Lincoln about the Dillon inscription when he returned the watch after cleaning it in 1864. But since Lincoln died before the watch would ever need cleaning again, my guess is that the "Jeff Davis" was added as a prank much later.

Now that was a fine bit of sleuthing, David! The watch must have been taken to Joseph Walter's watch shop for adjustment, repairs or cleaning, whence the additional inscriptions were made. This explanation should be verified, and certainly merits consideration as a formal postscript to the Lincoln watch article. Good Job!

Mike Freyder, While your obvious ignorance of historical facts can be easily spotted by any educated high school junior, your lack of basic English skills further underscores your lack of intellect on this subject. In the future, please get your facts straight before shooting off at the mouth. Lincoln DID in fact free the slaves with the Emancipation Proclamation and the passage of the 13th Amendment. The only revisionist history being presented here is coming from you.

Somebody get me a towel to clean the slobber off my screen. Lincoln was a criminal, he like Clinton violated the constitution and got away with it. If we had a real president at the time, the war between the states would never have happened. Didn't see any mention in either article I read of Jeff Davis' name being in the watch. Even as we speak the media is re-writing history just as they have done for the past 145 years. Read people and discover the truth, not the revisionist books in schools read to find the truth. Bet most of you have not even read the so called Emancipation Proclamation, read close it did not free slaves, the 14th amendment did. Lincoln was a joke.

We've posted video from the event on the National Museum of American History "O Say Can You See" blog:
http://blog.americanhistory.si.edu/osaycanyousee/2009/03/a-hush-fell-over-the-room-as-the-watchmaker-halted-his-work-a-partially-dismantled-pocket-watch-that-once-belonged-to-pres.html

I found that the Mr. Dillon, who first worked on this watch lived in D. C. in 1860 but later showed up on the New York census of 1870. Maybe that is why President Lincoln went to somebody else, and had to use Mr. Walter in Baltimore to work on his watch in 1864; Mr. Dillon had left. Mr. Walter was in Baltimore in 1856 with his business and still there in 1879 so its a very big possibility this is correct and Louis Edward Gross worked on this watch.

L. E. Gross is Louis Edward Gross, born 1841 in Baltimore, Maryland, died 1870. He worked for Mr. Joseph M. Walter of 85 N. Eutaw St., Baltimore, Maryland, listed as a watch maker in 1860 and a jeweler in 1880. L. E. Gross', brothers names match several Gross' who served in the 16th Virginia Cavarly (CSA).

Maybe there are still some words inscribed on the back of that metal plate. Mr. Thomas, did you check it, too? Mr. Dillon must have really written about Lincoln and slavery in that historical watch 45 years after the first shot was fired. How I wish Mr. Stiles and Mr. Ishaam would meet and pose for a photograph. It would be like Lincoln and Dillon meeting for the first time.

Lincoln was no "devout" Christian, a man who did not belong to any church. The records show that he authorized the arrest of priest and ministers, while they were administering services, and in one case, during communion, by armed soldiers because they, the ministers and priest, failed to lead or say a prayer for President Abraham Lincoln. These men of the cloth were violently removed from their churches and thrown in jail. The churches were boarded up and closed by Lincoln's troops. In other cases citizens were arrested during church services if they left before or during the prayer for Lincoln, this included old people and women. Lincolns Union cavalry was allowed to confiscate Southern churches to be used as barns for their horses, if they didn’t burn them first. The Catholic churches were reserved for extremely harsh treatment, especially after the Pope publically denounced Lincoln’s war against the South. A Catholic Church cemetery was desecrated when Union troops dug up the graves to place their trenches and artillery. George Washington’s Church in Pohick, Virginia, built by and attended by the father of our country, was stripped for souvenirs, its worship space used as a stable and pockmarked the exterior with bullet holes. All of these outrages to houses of worship were with full knowledge and approval of President Lincoln. “If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be.” Thomas Jefferson.

Who says Lincoln knew that anything was inscribed in his watch,Dave, much less the name of Jeff Davis! Besides, if he carried it over his heart, as you say, and did know what was inscribed, knowing the devout Christian Lincoln was, I am sure it held a reminder to pray for his divided country, and the leader of the South, too. It should serve as a reminder to us to continue praying for this country and its leadership. Thank you for your kind remarks about an awesome man who truly was bigger than life in many ways, Louann.

ROFL!!!!!! Lincoln carried "Jeff Davis" next to his heart! I can't believe nobody sees the humor in this. I sure do; apparently not everybody in the North loved Lincoln and this proves it. How come the press isn't focusing on the practical joke on our "number one" president? Its right there in BIG letters...Haw! Haw! Haw!

What an awesome man!! The greatest who ever lived, he had so much, wisdom, intelligence, the ability to lead and so much else. He gave us so much, and I honor his memory always, I truly believe he was taken from us by the evil in this world, and because he could have done so much more than he did, but he was killed because he was so great, I truly believe that, and that is one of the tragedies I deplore, and he had so much more to offer. What a loss, and I can only - in my mind - give him the credit for the rest. He truly could have brought us so very far, and I grieve for this truly great man and the grievous loss to all of us, I pray that we will always cherish his memory and remember him and what he did, and because of him, I pray that this country he loved so much and did so much for shall not perish from this earth. Surely we can continue what he began and continued on, of course there were others, but he really had the most awesome gifts he brought to us, and I bless him for that. I grieve for this man and his loss to all of us, I pray we can continue in his memory. bless him always, I stood where he gave the Gettysburg Adress, I felt his spirit there, and was renewed, the decisions he made affected so many and his wisdom will always be with us. Bless and keep him and please, let us remember him always and what he brought to us and taught us. He was such an amazing man, and a terrible loss. I am so saddened by all of that. I read about how he lingered and those who were with him, and how terrible that must have been. Hold them close, dear Lord, and keep them too, and the rest of us must always remember and carry on his spirit and his work. Amen

Lincoln truly was the most magnificent man who ever lived, he was "to the manor born", I am in such awe of this man, all of his person, historical and everything about him, just overwhelms me. And I also believe that he was assassinated because he was such a great man, and that evil truly was the cause of his death, as he could have been so much more if he had remained alive. He is one of the greatest tragedies ever, I believe that, and I deplore the fact that we lost him, he was indeed such a treasure, but he lives on today in so many ways, I pray this country he loved so much and did so much for and died for shall not perish from this earth. His memory shall keep us alive. Bless him and what he did for us, so many things, so much wisdom, he was the most awesome and greatest man who will ever live, surely one whom God gave to us, and hopefully we will continue to treasure and honor him always.

It's not "L.E. Grofs" inscribed there. It's "L.E. Gross" written like "Congrefs" most famously in the script of the Declaration of Independence. And the date following it is not "Sept 1864" but "Sep 1 1864" -- look carefully.